Artificial scarcity

Walmart sells good stuff too. Just like everything out of China isn't crap.

Of course they do, but the point is, you aren't going to find solid wood furniture at Walmart. And we aren't talking about electronics or anything high tech which is the only quality item that comes out of China. I suppose they make good plastics, but I can't bring myself to calling plastic high end.

China makes good, shave brushes, shirts, pants, scopes, etc. quality control varies in china much like the USA. Lots of companies in the USA make total crap with poor quality control too. Just cause something's USA made doesn't make it good.

As for furniture you won't find solid wood furniture at many stores except goodwill or furniture stores. Most people really don't care if it's solid wood. I have a particle board computer desk that's like 7 years old and a tv stand that's older then me. Are they as good looking as my hand crafter cedar chest, no but they do the job they for very well.

Shave related. Walmart sells Nivea products and other aftershaves.

Of course they do, but the point is, you aren't going to find solid wood furniture at Walmart. And we aren't talking about electronics or anything high tech which is the only quality item that comes out of China. I suppose they make good plastics, but I can't bring myself to calling plastic high end.

What difference does it make, provided the furniture is durable, aesthetically pleasing, of good quality construction and is good value for the money?  Or put another way, what difference does it make whether the cat is black or white so long as it catches the mice?

Some wetshavers on the forums might fuss and fret over irrelevant details, but they are a tiny fraction of traditional wetshavers overall.

A big part of the allure of this hobby is the rebellion against the notion that shaving has to be utilitarian and mundane. Mainstream expansion is what got us to that point in the first place. Continuing to push for it will only serve to restart the cycle -- which has already started.

That might be true for some, but the allure for me was improved shaves and value for the money.  High quality beautiful stuff and great shaves for dirt cheap vs. average shaves for high cost with a plastic razor handle that looks like Liberace's toothbrush... That is an easy choice.  From what I have read on the forums, better shaves and reduced costs are what motivate many to switch to traditional shaving.   A percentage might go on to be hobbyists, but there are a lot who just want a smooth, enjoyable shave.  Practical and focused does not have to be utilitarian or mundane, and there is much to be said for value for the money.  

To make traditional shaving mainstream again seems to be a fervently sought after a goal for a lot of folks.  There are many posts about evangalising and converting frends, family and co-workers to wetshaving.  If these shaving Prometheuses are successful, that will ultimately lead to mainstream use of traditional tools and methods.  If it makes shaving a better experience for the general public, then good.

No one is denying that Proraso et al work. But if you want the artisan makers with actual overhead to continue to survive, we need customers to buy our offerings. You will absolutely not find artisan shave soap at the same price as Proraso. It is not possible unless we worked for free. The process does not lend itself to mass manufacture. The best you'll get is Tabac or Valobra (which already dominate that space, so really, that's all you'll get).

Following the craft-brewing model likely wouldn’t result in our market being flooded with (perceived) cheap material goods.  Costs for current products likely wouldn’t have to be slashed and profits for our current artisans would likely increase.  At one point in this thread, Will wrote that the first artisan to “figure it out” will win.  My suggestion, or maybe challenge is a better word, for any artisan reading this would be to contact Jim Koch (one of the founders of Samuel Adams) and ask for the blueprint to challenge the “Big Boys”.  Maybe he could even sneak wet-shaving into one of his commercials or specialty beers.  Would love to see a commercial with him wet-shaving while drinking a Fat Boy Stout  

Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath about that one. But my specific concern is that it's much easier to scale up a brewing operation than it is a soap operation, primarily because a brewing operation does not involve the use of caustic or explosive materials. A brewing license is dramatically easier to get than an SDA license, and many of the machines that we have built to help improve and speed up production simply don't exist in the equipment world (and thus has to be constructed from scratch). I think we have a LOOOONG way to go yet before we even get to the point where there's the potential to grow like Sam Adams did.

The biggest flaw in this analogy (and why it will never happen) is that craft beer is 100% fungible with Bud Lite. The only differences are quality & price. Not so with shaving soap. That requires the consumer to completely change the way he shaves and forfeit the convenience of soap in a can for brush & soap.

The only fungible mass produced product is Proraso and the like. And let's be realistic here. Proraso makes a lot less shave soap than Barbasol makes cream in a can.

All my girlfriends have been "fungible".

All my girlfriends have been "fungible".  

OMG, lol.

I certainly don't disagree...as a matter of fact, I think you're spot on.  From the logistics to the legalities to the real estate to everything in between, creating an operation to mass-produce specialty shave soaps is an endeavor few, if any, would be willing to take on.  But think of the sense of accomplishment if it could be achieved....to be the next Sam Adams

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that when Sam Adams began they didn't actually brew their own beer - they had their beer brewed under contract with a large commercial brewery that has unutilized capacity.  They brewed Sam Adams to the specific recipe provided for in the contract including premium ingredients etc.  The large commercial breweries are expert brewmasters and can brew anything you like.  They brew the beer they brew by design not because its the best they can do.  Sam Adams was eventually successful enough to build their own breweries and other craft brewers have used the same model to become successful as well.

Query whether soap can be made according to this model?  Large state of the art soap manufacturing facility with excess capacity could make soap under contract for an artisan according to artisans precise recipe.  What would be wrong with that?

Nothing. But, having looked into the matter, most commercial soap manufacturers do not operate that way. They have hard-and-fast minimums of 25,000 pieces (at least; some have minimums of 100,000 or more), which is simply beyond the reach of the artisan soap world. If you have the kind of cash to purchase that much soap at once, you're probably not an artisan shaving soap manufacturer in the first place.

Details, details...

I am still at the "what defines a Artisan"? There are industrial multi-national producers like Unilever, P&G and J&J but after that, I would pretty much regard everyone else an Artisan regardless of if there's 1 or 30 people making the soap.

As for artificial-scarcity, its a standard Marketing 101 selling technique. Simply put, you use the fear of shortage to drive sales.

As you've said, words mean what we collectively understand them to mean.

Everyone agrees that pumping out 10,000 bars a day/hour is not artisan, but what about 1,000 bars of soap? It's actually feasible for a two person team to do that (or one very productive soapmaker), but then the packaging would take the rest of the week, so I suppose that wouldn't really be 1,000 bars a day. 200-500 bars a day packaged is about what one or two people can reasonably pump out consistently. IMO.

]No one is denying that Proraso et al work. But if you want the artisan makers with actual overhead to continue to survive, we need customers to buy our offerings. You will absolutely not find artisan shave soap at the same price as Proraso. It is not possible unless we worked for free. The process does not lend itself to mass manufacture. The best you'll get is Tabac or Valobra (which already dominate that space, so really, that's all you'll get).

You don't need to price match, just offer better value for the money than the competition. It must also be within the maximum price a people are willing to pay. And, of course, make potential customers aware of your offerings and maintain brand integrity and loyalty. It isn't an artisan shaving soap market, it is a shaving soap market. Selling to forum goers is well and good, but the much larger and much less saturated market is outside the forums. Soapmakers who are able to tranced the forum boundaries and also diversify their product lineup will be most likely to be successful in the long term. There might also be business opportunities in being a small scale contract manufacturer for other artisans.

I have seen a lot of David vs. Goliath attitudes in online wetshaving. But hey, the Goliaths employ people, too. Also, telling people they should support artisans, but only certain artisans won't work. All the remaining artisans will simply claim they are the "right" kind of artisan. The word "artisan" has been overused and exploited to the point that it is becoming meaningless anyways. I agree with boycotts against companies I know to mistreat their workforce or otherwise behave unethically, but other than that let the products and their availability speak for themselves. It is shaving soap Darwinism. As consumers become increasingly wise to artificial shortage game playing, it supply issues just drive them to other vendors.

Mama Bear and West Coast Shaving long enjoyed privileged status at B&B, at least from what I could see. Now that many competitors have the same privileged status, one company was sold and the other will fold. This kind of stuff happens all the time in emerging markets. If you want to rise to the top, be the cream.

The debate here is starting to go down yet another rabbit hole. It's the big picture that counts, not the minutiae.

Just as a note, there has been a huge shakeup in the commercial body soap industry in the past few years with major divestitures, e.g., Zest, Camay, etc., sold to foreign companies & smaller American ones as well. Also, the oldest bar soap brand made in American, Cashmere Boquet, shuttered the factory in Kansas City that was opened in 1872. I get the feeling that companies only want to make liquid soap as perhaps it's cheaper to make and because more people use that form. Just as long as they keep making bar Safeguard then I'm OK.

...but I can't bring myself to calling plastic high end.

The U.S. Military uses a rifle with "plastic" furniture and the Army just adopted a polymer frame handgun, the SIG P320. Just as there are both excellent & sub-par metal alloys, the same applies to polymers (plastics).

The marketing term for plastic in "higher end" (i.e., expensive) products is "resin". Case in point - all those fancy, multi-coloured shaving brush handles.

Regarding the shift to liquid detergent/cleansers - I imagine its a lot cheaper to make massive vats of detergent than to make bars of soap which would translate into higher profits for the manufacturers. How the heck do you put a liquid body wash on a rope? Its just wrong.

Just as a note, there has been a huge shakeup in the commercial body soap industry in the past few years with major divestitures, e.g., Zest, Camay, etc., sold to foreign companies & smaller American ones as well. Also, the oldest bar soap brand made in American, Cashmere Boquet, shuttered the factory in Kansas City that was opened in 1872. I get the feeling that companies only want to make liquid soap as perhaps it's cheaper to make and because more people use that form. Just as long as they keep making bar Safeguard then I'm OK.  

It is, and probably will remain, unfeasible to ship water via freighter. Weighs too much and takes up a ton of space.

That's why bottling plants are located near where they ultimately need to go.

You don't need to price match, just offer better value for the money than the competition. It must also be within the maximum price a people are willing to pay. And, of course, make potential customers aware of your offerings and maintain brand integrity and loyalty. It isn't an artisan shaving soap market, it is a shaving soap market. Selling to forum goers is well and good, but the much larger and much less saturated market is outside the forums. Soapmakers who are able to tranced the forum boundaries and also diversify their product lineup will be most likely to be successful in the long term. There might also be business opportunities in being a small scale contract manufacturer for other artisans.

I have seen a lot of David vs. Goliath attitudes in online wetshaving...

We're getting into a different argument here.

I'll address the price part. Only people who care about quality more than price, and that isn't nearly the majority, will pay double for an artisan product when Proraso works. The large companies have their place, we have our place. But if the market changes, the people that will go extinct first is the artisan with overheard. It's simply a fact of life and exactly what you're saying when you or anyone else cites "capitalism" or "darwinism" or "the strongest will survive".

The point I'm trying to make is that artisan soap will never be mainstream. It's too expensive and not enough people want it.