What's your favorite soap by PAA?

Didnt that guy ..... nevermind

PAA is Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements?  People are still using their soaps on a widespread basis?

???

If PAA stands for Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements...

http://theoriginalsafetytoo.com/thread/1...ng-scandal

Not sure if any of it it is true or not, but a lot of people seemed to think it was and were quite upset.  Often wetshaving = drama.

And yes...I have completely disassociated from the source of the rumours about PAA. His products are simply fantastic, and very affordable. I have the scuttle, i have a soap and a splash on the way, I have thw Ibis shavette on the way and the Tali Long Rider with duro knot on the way...

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Oh, ok so that's what was going on.  Thank you for clearing that up.

Very often wetshaving = drama.

Accusations of posing as a vet have been completely disproven by the individual, a vet, that begged Douglas for his help.

As near as I can figure, Douglas and Frances are married. They are also partners. She is as much an artisan as he is. I may have that wrong, but I haven't wasted a lot of time trying to track down wrongdoing.

There is nothing unethical, imoral, or illegal about marketing oneself and ones products under multiple identities. The company I work for goes by 3 different names, advertises under 3 names, and sells services under 3 names, all legally. The idea that it is illegal to own several business identities in an effort to broaden ones market is ridiculous. Anyone ever heard of GM, GMC, and Chevrolet?

Every time I read through one of these topics, all I see is a bunch of people tossing about accusations without ever showing any type of proof of actual wrongdoing. There is a lot of assumption, a ton of conjecture, and a boatload of armchair lawyers pretending to know something is illegal when it isn't actually illegal, or even questionable.

It all boils down to people being butthurt, as far as I can tell. The guy makes fantastic products that perform exceptionally well, and he has created marketing strategies and identities that have worked exceptionally well for him.

Haters gonna hate. Ainters gonna aint.

And if you "get" that movie reference, you're awesome!

???

If PAA stands for Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements...

http://theoriginalsafetytoo.com/thread/1...ng-scandal

Not sure if any of it it is true or not, but a lot of people seemed to think it was and were quite upset.  Often wetshaving = drama.

And yes...I have completely disassociated from the source of the rumours about PAA. His products are simply fantastic, and very affordable. I have the scuttle, i have a soap and a splash on the way, I have thw Ibis shavette on the way and the Tali Long Rider with duro knot on the way...

Sent from my LGL34C using Tapatalk

Oh, ok so that's what was going on.  Thank you for clearing that up.

Very often wetshaving = drama.

Accusations of posing as a vet have been completely disproven by the individual, a vet, that begged Douglas for his help.

As near as I can figure, Douglas and Frances are married. They are also partners. She is as much an artisan as he is. I may have that wrong, but I haven't wasted a lot of time trying to track down wrongdoing.

There is nothing unethical, imoral, or illegal about marketing oneself and ones products under multiple identities.  The company I work for goes by 3 different names, advertises under 3 names, and sells services under 3 names, all legally. The idea that it is illegal to own several business identities in an effort to broaden ones market is ridiculous. Anyone ever heard of GM, GMC, and Chevrolet?

Every time I read through one of these topics, all I see is a bunch of people tossing about accusations without ever showing any type of proof of actual wrongdoing. There is a lot of assumption, a ton of conjecture, and a boatload of armchair lawyers pretending to know something is illegal when it isn't actually illegal, or even questionable.

It all boils down to people being butthurt, as far as I can tell.  The guy makes fantastic products that perform exceptionally well, and he has created marketing strategies and identities that have worked exceptionally well for him.

Haters gonna hate. Ainters gonna aint.  

And if you "get" that movie reference, you're awesome!

.. Wo.... Wow. Simply fantastic lol. I've been saying this for a while now.

I'll add to the list too:

ESPN
ABC
ABC Family/Freeform
Pixar
Lucasfilms
Marvel

What do these brands have in common?

All of them are owned by Disney.

PAA
Crown King
HTGAM
PPF

Its pretty much the same thing. And to be blunt, long before I saw this drama, I emailed Douglas to inquire about their affiliation. He was very straightforward with it to me. It just goes to show that people like to point fingers without ever doing some research. Not to say he was completely innocent, but implying that multi-branding their products is illegal? Puhlease.

Accusations of posing as a vet have been completely disproven by the individual, a vet, that begged Douglas for his help.

He was a participating member of a veteran's only Facebook group for months without mentioning that he wasn't a vet, so he was tacitly representing himself as one to all the members (except the admin who let him into the group, who also didn't mention it to the rest of the membership). When asked directly, he evaded a direct answer.

There is nothing unethical, imoral, or illegal about marketing oneself and ones products under multiple identities. The company I work for goes by 3 different names, advertises under 3 names, and sells services under 3 names, all legally. The idea that it is illegal to own several business identities in an effort to broaden ones market is ridiculous. Anyone ever heard of GM, GMC, and Chevrolet?

That's a straw man. That's not what people were concerned about. He had Facebook accounts as both "Douglas" and "Hodges" that were both members of the same Facebook group. "Hodges" would ask questions about htgam, "Douglas" would answer them. They'd have conversations back and forth praising his products. This was not like a company marketing products under multiple brands, it was one person posting as multiple people in a forum to promote his products.

Later, "Hodges" was positioned as the proprietor of PPF, and "Douglas" interviewed "Hodges" for an extremely complimentary post on Sharpologist. Again, not two brands that are transparently part of the same company, but one person posting as two to market products on what was presented to readers as an interview/review, not an ad.

Every time I read through one of these topics, all I see is a bunch of people tossing about accusations without ever showing any type of proof of actual wrongdoing. There is a lot of assumption, a ton of conjecture, and a boatload of armchair lawyers pretending to know something is illegal when it isn't actually illegal, or even questionable.

I'm not saying he did anything illegal, but he lied to a lot of people on a lot of occasions in a community where people perhaps naively put a lot of implicit trust in others in the community. So people got worked up. The things I mentioned only scratch the surface, I'm certainly not going to hash it all out again. People can find it if they want to go looking.

I got into a lot of arguments about this when it was all going down a couple years ago. At some point I decided to just let it go and spend my money elsewhere. I hesitated several days before saying anything here, but you make it sound like he was just the victim of made up bullshit, and that's just not the case.

You're going to ask me for proof. I'm not going to spend my evening trying to dig up two year old forum posts, a lot of which have been removed. The Sharpologist article I mentioned, for example, was removed. You can go looking if you want, or you can take me at my word, or not. Up to you.

Of course folks deserve 2nd chances, and that's what PAA is: the HTGAM and PPF brands were so tarnished that he laid low for a couple months and then restarted under the new PAA brand.

I'm glad you've found products of theirs that you enjoy and I am not trying to convince you to not use them. But please don't be so dismissive of the complaints about his prior business practices.

Accusations of posing as a vet have been completely disproven by the individual, a vet, that begged Douglas for his help.

He was a participating member of a veteran's only Facebook group for months without mentioning that he wasn't a vet, so he was tacitly representing himself as one to all the members (except the admin who let him into the group, who also didn't mention it to the rest of the membership). When asked directly, he evaded a direct answer.

There is nothing unethical, imoral, or illegal about marketing oneself and ones products under multiple identities.  The company I work for goes by 3 different names, advertises under 3 names, and sells services under 3 names, all legally. The idea that it is illegal to own several business identities in an effort to broaden ones market is ridiculous. Anyone ever heard of GM, GMC, and Chevrolet?

That's a straw man. That's not what people were concerned about. He had Facebook accounts as both "Douglas" and "Hodges" that were both members of the same Facebook group. "Hodges" would ask questions about htgam, "Douglas" would answer them. They'd have conversations back and forth praising his products. This was not like a company marketing products under multiple brands, it was one person posting as multiple people in a forum to promote his products.

Later, "Hodges" was positioned as the proprietor of PPF, and "Douglas" interviewed "Hodges" for an extremely complimentary post on Sharpologist. Again, not two brands that are transparently part of the same company, but one person posting as two to market products on what was presented to readers as an interview/review, not an ad.

Every time I read through one of these topics, all I see is a bunch of people tossing about accusations without ever showing any type of proof of actual wrongdoing. There is a lot of assumption, a ton of conjecture, and a boatload of armchair lawyers pretending to know something is illegal when it isn't actually illegal, or even questionable.

I'm not saying he did anything illegal, but he lied to a lot of people on a lot of occasions in a community where people perhaps natively put a lot of implicit trust in others. So people got worked up. The things I mentioned only scratch the surface, I'm certainly not going to hash it all out again. People can find it if they want to go looking.

I got into a lot of arguments about this when it was all going down a couple years ago. At some point I decided to just let it go and spend my money elsewhere. I hesitated several days before saying anything here, but you make it sound like he was just the victim of made up bullshit, and that's not the case.

You're going to ask me for proof. I'm not going to spend my evening trying to dig up two year old forum posts, a lot of which have been removed. The Sharpologist article I mentioned, for example, was removed. You can go looking if you want, or you can take me at my word, or not. Up to you.

Of course folks deserve 2nd chances, and that's what PAA is: the HTGAM and PPF brands were so tarnished that he laid low for a couple months and then restarted under the new PAA brand.

I'm glad you've found products of theirs that you enjoy and I am not trying to convince you to not use them. But please don't be so dismissive of the complaints about his prior business practices.

Chuck, thank you for stating this in a very gentlemanly fashion. Your description is exactly as I remember it. PAA products are not for me, but I have long since moved on from the drama. I have no qualms with people enjoying their products and chatting about it. But there is no need to lambast the people that were not OK with this behavior.

Accusations of posing as a vet have been completely disproven by the individual, a vet, that begged Douglas for his help.

He was a participating member of a veteran's only Facebook group for months without mentioning that he wasn't a vet, so he was tacitly representing himself as one to all the members (except the admin who let him into the group, who also didn't mention it to the rest of the membership). When asked directly, he evaded a direct answer.

There is nothing unethical, imoral, or illegal about marketing oneself and ones products under multiple identities. The company I work for goes by 3 different names, advertises under 3 names, and sells services under 3 names, all legally. The idea that it is illegal to own several business identities in an effort to broaden ones market is ridiculous. Anyone ever heard of GM, GMC, and Chevrolet?

That's a straw man. That's not what people were concerned about. He had Facebook accounts as both "Douglas" and "Hodges" that were both members of the same Facebook group. "Hodges" would ask questions about htgam, "Douglas" would answer them. They'd have conversations back and forth praising his products. This was not like a company marketing products under multiple brands, it was one person posting as multiple people in a forum to promote his products.

Later, "Hodges" was positioned as the proprietor of PPF, and "Douglas" interviewed "Hodges" for an extremely complimentary post on Sharpologist. Again, not two brands that are transparently part of the same company, but one person posting as two to market products on what was presented to readers as an interview/review, not an ad.

Every time I read through one of these topics, all I see is a bunch of people tossing about accusations without ever showing any type of proof of actual wrongdoing. There is a lot of assumption, a ton of conjecture, and a boatload of armchair lawyers pretending to know something is illegal when it isn't actually illegal, or even questionable.

I'm not saying he did anything illegal, but he lied to a lot of people on a lot of occasions in a community where people perhaps natively put a lot of implicit trust in others. So people got worked up. The things I mentioned only scratch the surface, I'm certainly not going to hash it all out again. People can find it if they want to go looking.

I got into a lot of arguments about this when it was all going down a couple years ago. At some point I decided to just let it go and spend my money elsewhere. I hesitated several days before saying anything here, but you make it sound like he was just the victim of made up bullshit, and that's not the case.

You're going to ask me for proof. I'm not going to spend my evening trying to dig up two year old forum posts, a lot of which have been removed. The Sharpologist article I mentioned, for example, was removed. You can go looking if you want, or you can take me at my word, or not. Up to you.

Of course folks deserve 2nd chances, and that's what PAA is: the HTGAM and PPF brands were so tarnished that he laid low for a couple months and then restarted under the new PAA brand.

I'm glad you've found products of theirs that you enjoy and I am not trying to convince you to not use them. But please don't be so dismissive of the complaints about his prior business practices.

Ok...
Facebook group-the owner asked.him multiple times to please help. Douglas said no, multiple times. The owner of said admin group created thw group and made Douglas an admin without his knowledge, and told Doyglas after the fact, "Ive made you an admin. Just help when you can." Douglas did not present hkmfself as anything...

Lying about a personna? Actually, it is marketing, veey much in the same vein as the "outtakes" from many pixar movies, which are clearly not real outtakes, or Jeff Dunham having routine converaations with himself as part of his career choice, or Edward Norton and Brad itt pretending to be the same person.

I know..."its not the same". But its only not the same because you believe it to be different. Its all a form of pretend...acting...portraying a false reality...kind of like every single lable of his that has a picture of him in some crazy outfit in some comoletwly unrealistic situation that cant possibly be real. Go ahead and be mad about that, if you really want to...people get mad about all kinda if silly, ridiculous stuff.

I read all the forum accusations regarding the FDA fiasco...you know...the forum oosts where he was forbidden to reply because "rules", but a select few people were allowed to hurl accusations without supporting evidence.

Forum posts arent evidence. And perhaps you didnt accuse him if illegal activity, but many other people did, and their accusations were flat out wrong.

Those same people always insult anyone that does support him, calling them "fanboys" and pretending tberw is some shady dealings going on, when in fact, you and everyone else are simply wrong in your acchsations.

Not bowing to your deaires and atooping to your level to defend himself from completely bogus accusations is not an implication of anythingbother than a higher level if maturity than those that choose tobdrag his name theough the mud, 3 or 4 years later, and STILL cant provided aby proof of any intentional deceit or illegal acyivities.

And ll say it again, in case you missed it... forum posts are not proof if anything. Just like a college professor will frown on using Wikipedia as a quotable source, uaing posts made by forum members with an axe to grind is not a great display of wrongdoing...

People can get mad at anyone they want for any reason they want. At the end of the day, there never has been any evidence of any intentional deception or illegal activity in any way. Not even a little bit.



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[Image: beatdeadhorse2.gif]

Quite right wyze0ne, and well said BadDad.

Gentlemen, isn't digging up and dusting off the artisan's alleged wrongdoings rather unproductive? To be clear, I think it's totally fine and perfectly legitimate to dislike the guy and/or to think he is an utter jerk, and even to voice those concerns, but even if all the charges leveled against him are true without the usual need for context or explanation (which I highly doubt), there are far more heinous villains who have done far, far worse. That any of this is resurfacing years later strikes me as mind-blowingly pointless.

How is it possible that numerous discussions across multiple forums are prone to descending into this same muck of rumor and hearsay? Why would anyone - except perhaps a vile and unsavory competitor - wish to actively harm his reputation and business years after the alleged wrongdoing? I don't know, but this happens regularly on other forums and is largely perpetrated by suspicious new accounts with a single agenda. I'm sure that many of you have seen similar rumor mills being cranked to maximum efficiency against this artisan or various others. Let's try to be vigilant here on DFS. All voices and perspectives ought to be heard, and thankfully the open nature of this forum will ensure that rumors are offered a counterweight.

And far be it from me to defend the guy - I don't know him, nor the full details of the situation. But come on. These are not sufficient reasons to tar and feather a man, especially years after the "fact"... Oh, and I like his soaps far more than many other artisan products, so if he's a terrible person at least he's good at his job.

Just my two yuan. Carry on.

Well back to you favorite PAA soaps! I already said mine was 9, but gondolier is also one hell of a scent!

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I haven't tried either lance3114. One thing that makes me hesitate to venture beyond CaD is that there is no centralized and easy to understand list of notes for each soap. If I could see all the soaps offered next to a brief scent description, it would be much easier to find and select new soaps that sound worthy of a try. A PDF chart of some sort would be a welcome addition to the website.

All of these PAA threads across multiple forums look exactly the same. For those that love it discuss away. For those that don't , unless you have issues with the products as far as scent or performance, why not just ignore the brand and ignore these threads?

If it is your intention to steer people from the brand, unearthing the PAA cadaver is not helping it only stirs controversy. Just let the thread become a tumbleweed and die. Vote with your wallet and buy something else. Im not a PAA fan after getting a few of them so I just do not buy the products. Easy peazy.

Look at this thread? Do you all honestly think this is helpful? Provide some honest criticism of the products and leave the artisan out of it.