#21
I don't thing there is a right or wrong answer here and I really like that the Artisans are responding Smile  But there is a LOT of grey in your answer Wink


(04-20-2016, 01:43 AM)j-mt Wrote: Made by hand (no mechanical production)

Then I hope you are out catching those buffies by hand and not shooting them with a shotgun Wink

(04-20-2016, 01:43 AM)j-mt Wrote: Made in house

So Lady Forbe's shaving cream was made in one of her cottages (in house). Cool. She passes.


(04-20-2016, 01:43 AM)j-mt Wrote: An original recipe/design

Lady Forbe's scents are her own. Cool

(04-20-2016, 01:43 AM)j-mt Wrote: Made of high quality ingredients/supplies

No one can argue Castle Forbes doesn't use quality ingredients and is not a top tier product. Cool

I don't know what utilitarian means in this context but it appears to me that CF doesn't meet the qualifications based upon production numbers. In that case, I don't see it really matters. Huh
#22
(04-20-2016, 02:12 AM)NeoXerxes Wrote: Hmmm. I suppose I'm not convinced of the practical utility of having a proper definition of what is and is not artisan.

Oh, I just see it thrown around so much I'm not sure what it means. It means nothing when it comes to food anymore. Anyone can call their bread "artisan" because it has become a marketing cliche, even when the bread is baked by the hundreds/day.

I get impression that some people just expect a product to be "better" if called artisan than say large manufacturing - and that is simply not true. If Castle Forbes is not artisan, many people will still think it better than many "artisan" products. The same is true in about all manufactured goods.

Although I do like the noun shartisan. Exclamation

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#23

Chazz Reinhold HOF
I have used some shartisan stuff that doesn't even come close to Castle Forbes quality, that's for realzzzzzzzz, lol....

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#24

Member
Nashville
(04-20-2016, 01:58 AM)NeoXerxes Wrote: Just to play devil's advocate, as an example of how these definitions can be a bit loose, here are some complications to each individual point:

1. What does it mean for the product to be made by hand? What if a production machine is designed, programmed, and automated by an artisan?
2. What if the type of soap, cream, or razor requires large batch purchases? I'd imagine that large batch production is different than small batch, individual made-to-order, and mass production methods.
3. What if some ingredients are exceptionally high quality and others are cheap? For example, some soaps that I've tried use a great base but use cheap and low quality fragrance oils.
4. What if some parts of the product are made in house but others are ordered? For example, an "artisan" might outsource a label, the packaging, or even the design/mixing of a fragrance.
5. Again, what if some parts of the finished product are original designs, but others are not?
6. Non-utilitarian assumptions require that the artisan have a particular motivation. How can we know or verify this in order to apply the label appropriately? Should we believe claims that are made in marketing materials?

To be clear mate, I'm not trying to refute or pick on your points in particular, but since you articulated some specific ones (and very well, I might add), it is helpful for me to use them as a device to contrast with my own point on the problems with using the "artisan" vs. "non-artisan" label.

1: If there's no chance for (slight) variation caused by human interaction in the creation of the product, it's not artisan.
2. Small batch would max out at the largest amount of product a single artisan can make without automating the process. I'd assume it'd vary per artisan. So let's say an artisan could make 50 soaps to a batch and Maggard's ordered 300. They'd have to make 6 batches to fulfill the order.
3. I'd call that a shartisan.
4. Do you consider the packaging, labels, etc. part of the product? I do in some ways, but I'm more interested in the product itself, not the package it comes in. I'd consider it a bonus if someone was hand making their jars, but I don't think it's a necessity to be an artisan.
5. Like? If you hand carved brush handles and glued in a Plisson knot, the handle would be artisan. The knot would not.
6. I'd say it's pretty easy to discern. Though I won't delve further into it given my position as a soap maker.

Since you brought it up, motivations play a very important part. I'd maintain that as soon as the artisan becomes more focused on money than the "art" they're creating, they are no longer an artisan.

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#25

Member
Nashville
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2016, 02:39 AM by j-mt.)
(04-20-2016, 02:19 AM)grim Wrote: I don't thing there is a right or wrong answer here and I really like that the Artisans are responding Smile  But there is a LOT of grey in your answer Wink


(04-20-2016, 01:43 AM)j-mt Wrote: Made by hand (no mechanical production)

Then I hope you are out catching those buffies by hand and not shooting them with a shotgun Wink

(04-20-2016, 01:43 AM)j-mt Wrote: Made in house

So Lady Forbe's shaving cream was made in one of her cottages (in house). Cool. She passes.


(04-20-2016, 01:43 AM)j-mt Wrote: An original recipe/design

Lady Forbe's scents are her own. Cool

(04-20-2016, 01:43 AM)j-mt Wrote: Made of high quality ingredients/supplies

No one can argue Castle Forbes doesn't use quality ingredients and is not a top tier product. Cool

I don't know what utilitarian means in this context but it appears to me that CF doesn't meet the qualifications based upon production numbers. In that case, I don't see it really matters.  Huh

The resulting product is made by hand, not necessarily the ingredients that go into it.

You either satisfy the requirements of that list or you don't. In my eyes there's no grey there.

Non-utilitarian as in the product is focused on the experience. It's elaborate. It's not mean to be used in the most efficient manner. Its creation was less about cost/margins and more about art.

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#26
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2016, 02:39 AM by brucered.)
If I get a handwritten letter and sample with my soap, it's Artisan.

If I get nothing, it's Shartisan.

Too soon?

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#27

Chazz Reinhold HOF
(04-20-2016, 02:39 AM)Bruce Wrote: If I get a handwritten letter and sample with my soap, it's Artisan.

If I get nothing, it's Shartisan.

Too soon?

Hector almost spilled his drink all over his iPad, lol.......too freaking funny!

[Image: E91wcKy.jpg]

dabrock likes this post
#28
(04-20-2016, 01:34 AM)Blackland Razors Wrote: My definition is simple. If you make it personally you are an artisan.

I agree with that definition and actually don't know how it could be anything else.
#29

Member
Nashville
On Castle Forbes, AFAIK the scents are theirs, but the products they put them in are outsourced. Their products also contain various chemical preservatives, etc. that would disqualify them from an artisan standpoint (IMO).

That's not to discredit any of their products, however.

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#30

Merchant
San Diego CA
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2016, 03:13 AM by Blackland Razors.)
(04-20-2016, 01:45 AM)Bruce Wrote:
(04-20-2016, 01:34 AM)Blackland Razors Wrote: My definition is simple. If you make it personally you are an artisan.
Even if the person making it, sucks at their craft?

Sure. They are still artisans, just not good ones.


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