Preservatives - There's a Reason

This is the sort of discussion I was hoping for.  I'm not out to point fingers or name names or anything like that.  I want to understand the soap making process a little better and I'm curious as I think many of the DFS members are.  

Thanks dominicr  and Dragonsbeard  for your replies - tell me then Dom, how do your products stay free from nasty stuff without any preservatives at all?  You can't just be crossing your fingers.  I'm not a biologist but I think I understand from basic food handling that the Ph of a substance is important in regards to risk of bacterial contamination.  I know that higher acidity inhibits bacteria and I'm guessing that high base would too.  What is the Ph of soap that has gone through the saponification process and does that inhibit bacterial growth in normal circumstances?  

Heres another question - do vegan soaps undergo the same saponification reaction that tallow based soaps do?  Is there lye used that (I assume) would make the soap fairly base in Ph?  

What about some of these latest generation of super fatted "soaps" that back in the day we would have called croaps?  Are they technically even soaps or just a mixture of slick ingredients?  If they haven't undergone saponification then will they need preservatives to be stable?  One thing that Frank mentioned was soaps going soupy.  I've had that happen a few times too where the "puck" in the tub just goes to liquid mush - pretty unappealing.  Not sure if thats a preservative issue or a stabilizer issue.

I had a soap from one of the Big Name vendors I bought upon release in 2020 and it developed black mold spots on it even though I let it sit uncovered for hours after each shave to dry. I e-mailed photos to the maker and he just blew it off, other than to say "Don't use it". No offer of replacement or reimbursement. Consequently I will never ever buy from him again. He has a "new" formula now. 

I had a soap from one of the Big Name vendors I bought upon release in 2020 and it developed black mold spots on it even though I let it sit uncovered for hours after each shave to dry. I e-mailed photos to the maker and he just blew it off, other than to say "Don't use it". No offer of replacement or reimbursement. Consequently I will never ever buy from him again. He has a "new" formula now. 

I assume when you say "big name" vendor, we're not talking about someone like Tabac? If we received this type of communication, we'd be launching an investigation.

This is the sort of discussion I was hoping for.  I'm not out to point fingers or name names or anything like that.  I want to understand the soap making process a little better and I'm curious as I think many of the DFS members are.  

Thanks dominicr  and Dragonsbeard  for your replies - tell me then Dom, how do your products stay free from nasty stuff without any preservatives at all?  You can't just be crossing your fingers.  I'm not a biologist but I think I understand from basic food handling that the Ph of a substance is important in regards to risk of bacterial contamination.  I know that higher acidity inhibits bacteria and I'm guessing that high base would too.  What is the Ph of soap that has gone through the saponification process and does that inhibit bacterial growth in normal circumstances?
 
We don't change our soap base around like others, so it's been awhile since I checked the ph level of our soap. I can tell you it's within normal levels for a bar of soap. The ph level of the soap (8-10) is not conducive to mold growth and once your fats go through the saponification process, that's where you'll end up. Where you see mold on a shaving soap (or croap), it's likely due to higher water content and Unsaponified fats, i.e. super fatting.  In my opinion, some makers go too far with the super fatting and the types of fats they choose. It invites trouble.
Bacteria will collect on the soap surface. You won't see it. Especially in the wet lather. Drying your shave soaps thoroughly helps keep this to a minimum. You can search this out online. I'm not sure you'd want enough "preservatives" in your soap to prevent this. Remember, mold & bacteria are not the same thing and I'm not sure you can eliminate bacteria from the surface.

Heres another question - do vegan soaps undergo the same saponification reaction that tallow based soaps do?  Is there lye used that (I assume) would make the soap fairly base in Ph? 
Yes, the fats all have their saponification values that you have account for in your recipe, but they end up in the same place essentially.

What about some of these latest generation of super fatted "soaps" that back in the day we would have called croaps?  Are they technically even soaps or just a mixture of slick ingredients?  If they haven't undergone saponification then will they need preservatives to be stable?  One thing that Frank mentioned was soaps going soupy.  I've had that happen a few times too where the "puck" in the tub just goes to liquid mush - pretty unappealing.  Not sure if thats a preservative issue or a stabilizer issue.

Super fatting does not necessarily make a "croap". It has more to do with moisture content. I would say that most of the croaps you're referring to should probably have some preservative due to the high moisture content and some of the milks used. As far as pucks turning to "liquid mush", I'd say they had too much water to begin with. I would guess all the "croaps" you're referring to are all technically soaps that have gone through some saponification.

For something like that to happen to Tabac/Maurer and Wirtz would be unusual but if you focus on the artisan wet shaving space that has popped up over the last 10-15 years, maybe less so. You have to keep in mind that many (all?) the artisan soap makers pretty much started out on their kitchen tables and they learned their craft along with the customers and I’m sure the learning curve was steep, if the number of artisans that are no longer in business can attest. Making product, selling it, shipping it, keeping customers happy, dealing with unforeseen circumstances and trying to live a life, be a spouse, be a parent , work a full time job.  I don’t know how they do it but I’m glad they did. In any case, back to …


…preservatives

What are natural preservatives vs unnatural ones?

I had a soap from one of the Big Name vendors I bought upon release in 2020 and it developed black mold spots on it even though I let it sit uncovered for hours after each shave to dry. I e-mailed photos to the maker and he just blew it off, other than to say "Don't use it". No offer of replacement or reimbursement. Consequently I will never ever buy from him again. He has a "new" formula now. 

I assume when you say "big name" vendor, we're not talking about someone like Tabac? If we received this type of communication, we'd be launching an investigation.

Declaration Grooming. AOC will be POTUS before I buy from them again.  

I had a soap from one of the Big Name vendors I bought upon release in 2020 and it developed black mold spots on it even though I let it sit uncovered for hours after each shave to dry. I e-mailed photos to the maker and he just blew it off, other than to say "Don't use it". No offer of replacement or reimbursement. Consequently I will never ever buy from him again. He has a "new" formula now. 

I assume when you say "big name" vendor, we're not talking about someone like Tabac? If we received this type of communication, we'd be launching an investigation.

Declaration Grooming. AOC will be POTUS before I buy from them again.  

Please don't even let those initials pass from your lips or keyboard anymore. Don't jinx us.

I’d like to keep a lively discussion going and I realize that probably all of us have had a suboptimal experience at some point but I’d like it if we can stay away from naming names. That’s unproductive and not the purpose of this thread. 

Back in the day a guy would buy a puck if soap and use it every day til it was gone, leaving it out to dry in his shave mug between shaves. That is the exception and not the rule nowadays with soaps being used and sealed and kept for years or being sold on the secondary market and being packed up and shipped around the world. They can be subjected to extremes in temperature and all sorts of conditions. To me, this makes the use of some form of preservative almost essential.

I’d like to keep a lively discussion going and I realize that probably all of us have had a suboptimal experience at some point but I’d like it if we can stay away from naming names. That’s unproductive and not the purpose of this thread. 

Back in the day a guy would buy a puck if soap and use it every day til it was gone, leaving it out to dry in his shave mug between shaves. That is the exception and not the rule nowadays with soaps being used and sealed and kept for years or being sold on the secondary market and being packed up and shipped around the world. They can be subjected to extremes in temperature and all sorts of conditions. To me, this makes the use of some form of preservative almost essential.

That's still the rule with most of our customers. Use the soap up and buy the next.
It's only in this small hobbyist world where a guy has a multitude of soaps. I believe you're falling into the hobbyist mentality.

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I’d like to keep a lively discussion going and I realize that probably all of us have had a suboptimal experience at some point but I’d like it if we can stay away from naming names. That’s unproductive and not the purpose of this thread...

I understand and agree with that and uphold that UNTIL after a resolution or loggerhead is reached. After the dust has settled then it is incumbent to be honest as well as a favor to other potential buyers to understand how certain vendors do business. If you're worried about losing an advertiser then simply say as such so we can know where you stand. I was a raised to be an honest & forthcoming man. I won't deviate from that. Your move.