What is the definition of an Artisan?

Many of these definitions would exclude all shave artisans or include all of them.  I don't think you are an artisan just because you make something by hand, that is too broad.

Small batches?  Nothing outsourced?  Money driven? No machines used?  

Show me an Artisan soap maker, razor maker or brush maker that doesn't have money at the top of their motivators and I'll show you an artisan who probably won't be around in a year.

I still have yet to pocket one single dollar so far. Any surplus revenue has been reinvested in the company thus far so I can have fun making new scents and doing new projects. So far I'm 10 months into it.

But I guess technically I don't make soap, so maybe that doesn't count. But certainly money hasn't been my singular focus and longevity is most certainly no issue here.

I understand Bruce's point.  Profit isn't a benefit of doing business, it's a prerequisite.  If you are producing something without the expectation of profit, for the fun of it, that falls into the realm of the hobbyist.  However, the term artisan does not imply being a hobbyist, nor does being a hobbyist preclude one from being an artisan.

Addressing grim's original  point. It is true that the term "artisan" is sometimes muddled when used only as a marketing term, however in a larger sense, it conjures up the image of a small operation where the primary decisions are made by a person, or small number of persons, rather than by a board of directors.  Likewise, day to day operations are presumed to be handled by some person rather than by a dedicated team.  Artisan products are, or at least are imagined to be, carried out in a single building rather than in a plant or other large production facility and without the aid of modern mass production methods -- for at least much of the operation.  In summary, the connotation of Artisan is directly related to the idea of "small business" as opposed to  "big business" and "main street" as opposed to  "wall street" or to use another common term a "mom and pop operation."

hawns

But after 10 months, you would still be considered in the growing stages. You can sustain it for a while, knowing that the money will eventually start coming in? Would you continue to do what you are doing, knowing there will never be a profit?

Either way, I don't see too many people in it just stuff for the fun. It's a business for most. Be it their main source of income or supplemental income.

As for me, I consider my go-to soap Artisan. Even though they make no claims on any label or description, make a lot of it and are likely driven by money.

Oh sure, you are correct on all of those points. And there will definitely be a profit stage, but if I were driven by money rather than the artistic expression side of it, then the business plan would have been drastically different. And by my projections, it probably will never be a lucrative venture. And I'm totally satisfied to make a couple dollars and play in my metaphorical sandbox. Honestly I think a lot of people share that mindset. I've never been into the ideas that there are bright lines that delineate anything, but rather most are blurred.

So instead of concentrating on what is or is not an artisan, I think most people can discern what kind of company they are doing business with and how they operate. The community isn't that large and I think most brands that would be a matter of discussion are very transparent in their business practices. Even if they don't participate on forums, it's rare to hear of someone who won't return an email. Which makes me think it's just better to look at how the company fits in with your own, personal standards, rather than try to think too deeply on categorization.

And this is not to demean this conversation or anyone's viewpoint, all of which I think are very interesting and well thought out. I just enjoy playing devil's advocate.

An Artisan and a Shartisan walk into a bar......,,

Many of these definitions would exclude all shave artisans or include all of them.  I don't think you are an artisan just because you make something by hand, that is too broad.

Small batches?  Nothing outsourced?  Money driven? No machines used?  

Show me an Artisan soap maker, razor maker or brush maker that doesn't have money at the top of their motivators and I'll show you an artisan who probably won't be around in a year.

I still have yet to pocket one single dollar so far. Any surplus revenue has been reinvested in the company thus far so I can have fun making new scents and doing new projects. So far I'm 10 months into it.

But I guess technically I don't make soap, so maybe that doesn't count. But certainly money hasn't been my singular focus and longevity is most certainly no issue here.

I understand Bruce's point.  Profit isn't a benefit of doing business, it's a prerequisite.  If you are producing something without the expectation of profit, for the fun of it, that falls into the realm of the hobbyist.  However, the term artisan does not imply being a hobbyist, nor does being a hobbyist preclude one from being an artisan.

Addressing grim's original  point. It is true that the term "artisan" is sometimes muddled when used only as a marketing term, however in a larger sense, it conjures up the image of a small operation where the primary decisions are made by a person, or small number of persons, rather than by a board of directors.  Likewise, day to day operations are presumed to be handled by some person rather than by a dedicated team.  Artisan products are, or at least are imagined to be, carried out in a single building rather than in a plant or other large production facility and without the aid of modern mass production methods -- for at least much of the operation.  In summary, the connotation of Artisan is directly related to the idea of "small business" as opposed to  "big business" and "main street" as opposed to  "wall street" or to use another common term a "mom and pop operation."

Oh sure, my overarching point is that it's probably more important to decide whether a brand meets your own, personal standards, rather than trying to decide what kind of category you fall in.

And would you call someone who is has a registered corporation, tax burdens, and wholesale retailer deals a hobbyist? I wouldn't consider myself a hobbyist. But again, I think that speaks more to how it's nigh impossible and a bit of an exercise in futility to try to put labels on everything. I prefer to judge things on a case-by-case basis.

"I told you General McGrath, this was not going to be fun"

I still have yet to pocket one single dollar so far. Any surplus revenue has been reinvested in the company thus far so I can have fun making new scents and doing new projects. So far I'm 10 months into it.

But I guess technically I don't make soap, so maybe that doesn't count. But certainly money hasn't been my singular focus and longevity is most certainly no issue here.

I understand Bruce's point.  Profit isn't a benefit of doing business, it's a prerequisite.  If you are producing something without the expectation of profit, for the fun of it, that falls into the realm of the hobbyist.  However, the term artisan does not imply being a hobbyist, nor does being a hobbyist preclude one from being an artisan.

Addressing grim's original  point. It is true that the term "artisan" is sometimes muddled when used only as a marketing term, however in a larger sense, it conjures up the image of a small operation where the primary decisions are made by a person, or small number of persons, rather than by a board of directors.  Likewise, day to day operations are presumed to be handled by some person rather than by a dedicated team.  Artisan products are, or at least are imagined to be, carried out in a single building rather than in a plant or other large production facility and without the aid of modern mass production methods -- for at least much of the operation.  In summary, the connotation of Artisan is directly related to the idea of "small business" as opposed to  "big business" and "main street" as opposed to  "wall street" or to use another common term a "mom and pop operation."

Oh sure, my overarching point is that it's probably more important to decide whether a brand meets your own, personal standards, rather than trying to decide what kind of category you fall in.

And would you call someone who is has a registered corporation, tax burdens, and wholesale retailer deals a hobbyist? I wouldn't consider myself a hobbyist. But again, I think that speaks more to how it's nigh impossible and a bit of an exercise in futility to try to put labels on everything. I prefer to judge things on a case-by-case basis.

This point is off topic, so this will be my last statement on this. What differentiates a hobby from business is the desire to support oneself and possibly others primarily or solely through some activity, the production or creation of products or by providing services.

In order to accomplish that, profit is a requirement, not a perk. Profit is the amount of money that remains after costs and taxes are deducted from revenues. You have stated that you made profit and have invested those profits into the company. The goal is assumed to be to allow growth. Therefore, these are business practices, rather than hobbyist practices.

I understand Bruce's point.  Profit isn't a benefit of doing business, it's a prerequisite.  If you are producing something without the expectation of profit, for the fun of it, that falls into the realm of the hobbyist.  However, the term artisan does not imply being a hobbyist, nor does being a hobbyist preclude one from being an artisan.

Addressing grim's original  point. It is true that the term "artisan" is sometimes muddled when used only as a marketing term, however in a larger sense, it conjures up the image of a small operation where the primary decisions are made by a person, or small number of persons, rather than by a board of directors.  Likewise, day to day operations are presumed to be handled by some person rather than by a dedicated team.  Artisan products are, or at least are imagined to be, carried out in a single building rather than in a plant or other large production facility and without the aid of modern mass production methods -- for at least much of the operation.  In summary, the connotation of Artisan is directly related to the idea of "small business" as opposed to  "big business" and "main street" as opposed to  "wall street" or to use another common term a "mom and pop operation."

Oh sure, my overarching point is that it's probably more important to decide whether a brand meets your own, personal standards, rather than trying to decide what kind of category you fall in.

And would you call someone who is has a registered corporation, tax burdens, and wholesale retailer deals a hobbyist? I wouldn't consider myself a hobbyist. But again, I think that speaks more to how it's nigh impossible and a bit of an exercise in futility to try to put labels on everything. I prefer to judge things on a case-by-case basis.

This point is off topic, so this will be my last statement on this. What differentiates a hobby from business is the desire to support oneself and possibly others primarily or solely through some activity, the production or creation of products or by providing services.

In order to accomplish that, profit is a requirement, not a perk. Profit is the amount of money that remains after costs and taxes are deducted from revenues. You have stated that you made profit and have invested those profits into the company. The goal is assumed to be to allow growth. Therefore, these are business practices, rather than hobbyist practices.

So....does making money at a craft disqualify one from being considered artisan?

That seems pretty unfair, in my estimation. Jt woukd seem to me that all artists and artidans would like to be paid for doing what they do. Wouldnt a lrofit merely be an extension of that?

Sent from my LGL34C using Tapatalk

I understand Bruce's point.  Profit isn't a benefit of doing business, it's a prerequisite.  If you are producing something without the expectation of profit, for the fun of it, that falls into the realm of the hobbyist.  However, the term artisan does not imply being a hobbyist, nor does being a hobbyist preclude one from being an artisan.

Addressing grim's original  point. It is true that the term "artisan" is sometimes muddled when used only as a marketing term, however in a larger sense, it conjures up the image of a small operation where the primary decisions are made by a person, or small number of persons, rather than by a board of directors.  Likewise, day to day operations are presumed to be handled by some person rather than by a dedicated team.  Artisan products are, or at least are imagined to be, carried out in a single building rather than in a plant or other large production facility and without the aid of modern mass production methods -- for at least much of the operation.  In summary, the connotation of Artisan is directly related to the idea of "small business" as opposed to  "big business" and "main street" as opposed to  "wall street" or to use another common term a "mom and pop operation."

Oh sure, my overarching point is that it's probably more important to decide whether a brand meets your own, personal standards, rather than trying to decide what kind of category you fall in.

And would you call someone who is has a registered corporation, tax burdens, and wholesale retailer deals a hobbyist? I wouldn't consider myself a hobbyist. But again, I think that speaks more to how it's nigh impossible and a bit of an exercise in futility to try to put labels on everything. I prefer to judge things on a case-by-case basis.

This point is off topic, so this will be my last statement on this.  What differentiates a hobby from business is the desire to support oneself and possibly others primarily or solely through some activity, the production or creation of products or by providing services.

In order to accomplish that, profit is a requirement, not a perk. Profit is the amount of money that remains after costs and taxes are deducted from revenues. You have stated that you made profit and have invested those profits into the company. The goal is assumed to be to allow growth. Therefore, these are business practices, rather than hobbyist practices.

Why does it matter if an artisan is making money? If an artisan is not permitted to be a business then what would be the difference in calling them a hobbyist? After all, isn't a hobbyist one who pursues a hobby for the love and enjoyment of the hobby? Once a hobbyist starts selling products I would consider them an artisan. Also, the amount of money generated should not matter at all. If an artisan soap maker makes $500,000 revenue in a year, and is still hands on involved in the operation from designing the recipe to making the products, then they are still an artisan as far as I'm concerned.

Here in Las Vegas we have a lot of artisan festivals and events, where the public can browse and buy products ranging from hand made jewely, to soaps and lotions, to arts and crafts, etc. I have been attending these festivals for 10 years and the name artisan has always been present. I have never given a second thought to soap makers being referred to as artisans, and it seems to be what most others refer to them as also, but every time one of these threads starts there is so much controversy over it and nobody has been able to convince anyone else otherwise. We even have artisans here to share their opinion but it just doesn't seem to matter. I don't know who would be the authority to provide a complete definition of the word artisan.

Seems to me that "artisan" can mean different things to different people in different contexts. But here, in the wet shaving community context, I always took "artisan" to simply mean a sole or very small group of people deeply involved, directly hands on, in the conceiving, manufacturing and to some extent, delivery of wet shaving hardware and software to customers. Sorta like small craftsman as they historically existed before the widespread advent of the modern corporate business form. They are, to me, distinguishable from end-product resellers and the more formal corporate entities that have been traditionally found in wet shaving (i.e., Gillette, Merkur, TOBS, Proraso, etc.). I really see no need to go any further with the term than that.

Really? Who cares if it's "artisan" or not. Bottom line, if you like the product and it works well for you, use it. If not, don't. All of this back and forth over the definition of a stupid word has got everybody going around in circles with no end in sight. What was the original point of this thread anyway?