RR Lupo .95 SB vs RR Game Changer 84-P SB

Dear brother Rocket_Boy 
I really disdain to continue the 
discussion further about the "B&B" .
But since we 've created ourselves a little 
topic derailment let us finish it here by 
agreeing that the Damn Fine Shave forum 
is indeed a cosy place to be and share 
any thoughts ,opinions,concerns-or even fears-,
knowledge and wisdom ,as also personal 
experiences and stories about shaving and more.
It's still an oasis of free-speech into the 
vast and arid wastelands of " biased by funds " 
cyber world.
A place where any concerns are not "spreading fears" .
Where a personal opinion is not " telling us what to do".
Where creative criticism is not " constantly arguing ".
Where moderation is not insulting to any member's intelligence.

And hopefully a place where any vendor's money have no 
other power than paying the advertising and/or cyber shop fees.

Amen from someone BANNED Twice from the other place

I should mention that little trick ,
although many users of the GC razors
already are aware of it by now .

How to safely and easily remove the blade
from the baseplate blade tabs :
Just press lightly ( and carefully enough ) with
the tip of your finger or thump ,the blade somewhere
besides/near one of it's edges
( best spot is over the blade clamping -inclined-
surfaces of the baseplate ) .The blade will
pop off from the tabs instantly !

Check from 2:46 on the following vid,
how exactly it is done :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVudE2E2s...tM6xz4I%3D

"Finish: Please note, these razors are tools, not jewels. 

We use a vibratory tumbling finish process which maintains the highest possible tolerances for the razors. 

This means the razors will not be mirror finished and will not be mark-free. 

The razors may have some milling marks or finishing marks. 

The razors can always be jewelry polished by the client later

 but our goal is to sell the razor at the best possible tolerances and lowest possible price."

           

A modern 316L stainless steel DE razor can be manufactured on a three-axis ( x,y,z ) CNC mill  . 

A four-axis (x,y,z + A rotational ) CNC mill will save plenty of production time per work piece ,as also is able to manufacture more intricate designed parts .

A five -axis ( x,y,z + A+B rotationals ) CNC mill saves even more production time per work piece and is able to manufacture even more intricate designed parts.

Stock Material : estimation of cost

Let us ( roughly by eyeballing ) assume  that in order to manufacture a 100 grams DE razor ,the mass of first material needed is about 150 grams .

** Although ,in reality there are multiple pieces machined on the same stock plate,

and the mass of removed metal is increased **

From the stock plate ,there isn't too much material to be removed (as long as the plate has the appropriate dimensions ) for making the razor's

base plate .About 15 grams at max.

The cap is the part that more than half of the stock plate material is removed ( to form the screw post and blade tabs ).

Roughly ,about 30 grams .

The handle is usually the part that has the less material removed .Let us assume is about 5 grams .

The price of AISI/SAE 316L (  aka A4 or 1.4404 ) in USA is roughly 4.8-5.5 USD per kg ,

while in China is 4.4-5.3 USD per kg .

So ,the cost of the stock material (round & plate or bar ) for manufacturing a modern DE 316L  stainless steel razor of 100 grams total mass is roughly 0.825 USD in the US,

while in China is 0.795 USD .

Not a big difference there .

Generally speaking ,you need almost a whole dollar of 316L stainless steel stock to manufacture a DE razor from it .

Can you imagine that ?

A whole freakin' dollar !

 

Machining prices in China vs the EU/US

Programming of the CNC mill is included in the prices above.

Estimation of machining cost

Let us assume that each razor (head) needs roughly one (1) hour to be machined out of the stock plate(s) ,on a 3-axis CNC mill *.

*Just a rough estimation based solely on my own experience ,as a machinist

Let us also use the "middle ground" of the price ranges given on the table above .

Since 316L is not the easiest material for the cutting tools ,

but at the same time it is not the hardest .There are far more gentle
( to the carbide cutting tools ) materials like bronze,brass,303 stainless,aluminium,etc.

As also there are far more brutal ones ,like Ti6Al4V ( Ti grade 5 ) ,904L stainless,

Cobalt & Tungsten steel alloys,Inconel alloys,etc.

So,In EU/USA it would roughly cost ; 1 hour x $38  ( range $30-$46 ) = 38 USD  to machine a modern DE razor ,in the US/EU.

While in China it would only cost roughly $8.5 .

Now ,here is the BIG difference ,right ?

There are more than a few reasons for that ...
But,they all sum up to "You get what you paid for ".
Enough said.-

You think the rest ...

So,the cost to machine a modern De Razor (with "machined" finish ) out of stock 316L ss in the EU/USA would be roughly $40 (+/- $10 ) per piece ,

while in China is roughly 9-10 USD .

Of course there other things that we left out and will add to the final product cost :

- Finish/ Surface Treatment : Sandblasted,Anodized,Brushed,Cerakoated,Nitrilled,Mirror polished ,etc.

- Quality Checking /Guarantee ( if any )

- Packaging ( if any ) 

- Marketing / Advertising ( if any ) 

- Logistics

As for the final retail price of the finished product : 

it has to include some PROFIT of course ,eh ?   

All these apply for shaving tools .

As for the shaving jewels ...

A shaving jewel can be considered as a piece of art.

Putting a fair price to such,is rather a form of art by its own .

Stephanos1920...your breakdown of manufacturing costs/MHs, etc. is a model that can be used for almost any 'machined goods'. I understand the start-up cost. The machines themselves can cost thousands, if not tens of thousands. Making a razor Baseplate, Topcap and Handle uses relatively small amounts of material. But, also require the knowledge to program a 'multi-axis' CNC machine.

I understand why some of these small production houses are charging 'whatever the Market will bare'. But, in MHO, I won't be spending $500 or more, for a DE razor. Someone would have to prove to me I'm getting $445 better shave. Now, if I wanted to collect impeccably finished functional art, I'd have a rack full. Collecting 'high-end' razors isn't my thing.

Thank you for sharing your Machinist knowledge with us.

b/r

RB

Yeap,there are a lot of us that have chosen to stay
on the "shaving tool" wagon or could not jump
to the "shaving jewel" wagon for whatever reason(s).

Myself ,beyond not having the economic
ability to make that leap ,I've realized that
I'm not a collector of art.
Basically ,I do not keep any sort of collection whatsoever.

My one and single razor is very special to me ,
because it serves me not just well ,but way better
than I could have imagined .Like no other has done
in the past .I admire of course the so called
hi-end razors ,but knowing that I 've already
found my shaving razor nirvana ,I honestly
do not feel anything more than simple admiration.
I'm not even being curious about how those
hi-end razors actually shave.

If I had the ability ,most probably I wouldn't mind 
paying the high price for few of them .
Few razor manufacturers are truly machining ( and/or designing ) 
artists and their work and ideas should be admired and 
receive all the praise and money they deserve.
But only a few of them ,if you ask me .

I judge ( and its my own personal view and opinion ) by
the whole "picture" of any given razor.I do not focus
just to a tree ,being unable to see the whole forest .

I'm not the kind of person that will be easily
persuaded to part with my hard-earned money
for something that has a novel or unique aesthetic 
or even functional design ,but it is made of "machine -ready "
alloys ,in order to reduce machining cost,for example.

( a very common example there...
A few pennies more for a slightly more
expensive "machining-ready" alloy/grade ,
can actually save $$$ because of reduced machining time
and cutting tool wear )


The whole package has to be of "hi-end" quality and not
just parts of it .It has to deserve it's high price .
I will pay for the superior imagination and
thinking of an artist ,but I also want the materials ,
the manufacturing ,the finish ,everything to be
"a piece of art" .

As to why I might be considering as "inferior" 
the machine -ready ( or "free-cutting" as they are called )
alloys or stainless steel grades of that kind ,
that's another story that I really hesitate to tell .
Surely ,I'm going to make more than a few "enemies"
by doing so.
But ,all it takes is a web research about the most common alloys
and metals used for DE razor CNC machining ,
in order to become a more informed consumer and customer.
They are not that many :
- Stainless steel SAE/AISI 303
-          "          "    SAE/AISI 304
-          "          "    SAE/AISI 316L
- Ti6Al4V ( Titanium grade 5 )
- Titanium grade 2 ( almost pure Titanium )
- Various brass and aluminium or nickel bronze alloys
- Aluminium alloys 6061 & 6063 as the most commonly used ones
and the 7075 at few cases.

Tip: Pay extra attention into their chemical stability or
corrosion resistance,already knowing that the
'operational environment' ,
at which those materials are subject to ,
may include hot & chlorinated domestic tap water .

Edit/Note: Just for the history :
The harder to machine metals and alloys are
quite laborious ,time-consuming and they wear off 
the cutting tools prematurely .Thus their machining wil 
cost FAR more than those easier to machine.

From the hardest to machine to the easiest :
1 - Ti Grade 5 ,904L ss
2 - 316L ss
3 - 304 ss , 630 ss (aka 17-4 PH)
4 - Ti Grade 2 
5 - 303 ss
6 - 7075
7 - 6061,6063
8 - Brass/ Bronze

Interesting side note. I believe RazoRock "HALO" handle is 'Grade 2 Ti'? I think I read that on the IB website.

b/r

RB

Titanium Grade 2 ( >99% pure Titanium ) is
much more corrosion resistant than Ti grade 5
( aka Ti6Al4V ) ,while it has considerably lower
tensile strength.

If you ask me ,Ti Gr 2 is better suited for
a shaving tool thab Ti Gr5.
Thing is that it does not keep a sheen surface
( meaning that when mirror -polished
it will dull and get scratches pretty easily ) ,
while Ti Gr 5 retains for longer a mirror polished surface.

I do not open beer bottles with my DE razor,
neither use it as a mini hammer .Neither I'm
aware of someone else that uses his DE razor
in such way that would need the high tensile strength
Ti Gr 5 is offering .Clearly an overkill to use
Ti Gr5 for manufacturing a DE razor  ,as I see it.
Machining Ti Gr5 is very time-consuming and
very expensive .
DE razors from Ti Gr2 would cost much
cheaper ( assuming that the maker is not
profiteering ) than the same razors made
from Ti Gr5.


(...)Titanium Grade 2 or Titanium CP3 is a commercially pure alpha (α) alloy. 
Although not as strong as Ti 6Al-4V, Titanium grade 2 has outstanding corrosion resistance
 against variety of aggressive media. For example, Titanium grade 2 is virtually immune to
 wet chlorine at 10°C – 80°C (0-0.02 mpy or 0.001 mm/y) and thus, used to make
 chlorine dioxide mixers, pipework and fasteners in modern bleach plants.

Titanium grade 2 is specified based on its excellent corrosion resistance in environments which include:
calcium chloride, cupric chloride, ferric chloride, various concentrations of acetic acid,
 high temperature seawater, most organic media and more.
However, other conditions such as temperature, pH level and flow velocity could alter
 its properties drastically e.g. susceptibility to stress corrosion cracking and crevice corrosion. 
When compared with Titanium grade 5 (Ti 6Al-4V), Titanium grade 2 is generally selected
where aqueous corrosion resistance and/or formability are required.
(...)
https://www.neonickel.com/technical-reso...20required.

https://www.titaniumprocessingcenter.com...ium-grade/

Somewhere around the end of 2019 ,
Razorock changed the design of the
Game Changer series top cap .

The new top cap is 1.6 grams lighter than
the old cap ( 9.1 vs 10.7 grams ) and
0.125 mm ( ~ 5 thou ) thinner.



From Razorock ( response was given during 2020 ) :
“That's correct, we updated the design slightly last year to make the cap about 5 thousandths slimmer and a bit lighter. Geometry and exposure numbers are the same and within the same measurable tolerances. The only way someone would notice is if they have an older and newer model and a very keen eye. Keep in mind that milled razors will have 3-4 thou machining and finishing tolerances. Also, based on our measuring, blades from different manufacturers can have 4-5 thou width differences, that's why Kai DE Blades seem sharper, they are about 4 thou wider and create noticeably more blade exposure.”

I have been using my Lupo .95 with both the Ti "HALO" and the "Thin-Bar" handle. However, this a.m. I decided to use the "Barber Pole" handle. It's been one of my favorites in the past. I wish the "Barber Pole" was a little lighter, but I can certainly live with it. 

The "Thin-Bar" is diminutive in size and weight. And, very nimble in the hand. A great choice for a 'travel' razor. 

IMO, the "HALO" is a bit too long. My beard goes down my neck, pretty far and the "HALO" handle, at 100mm, hits my shoulder as I'm shaving, causing a stutter to my shaving stroke and, on occasion, a weeper or nick. 

So, with all that said, my current 'favorite' is still the "Barber Pole" handle in 316L stainless steel. The others will remain in rotation.

b/r

RB

I have been using my Lupo .95 with both the Ti "HALO" and the "Thin-Bar" handle. However, this a.m. I decided to use the "Barber Pole" handle. It's been one of my favorites in the past. I wish the "Barber Pole" was a little lighter, but I can certainly live with it. 

The "Thin-Bar" is diminutive in size and weight. And, very nimble in the hand. A great choice for a 'travel' razor. 

IMO, the "HALO" is a bit too long. My beard goes down my neck, pretty far and the "HALO" handle, at 100mm, hits my shoulder as I'm shaving, causing a stutter to my shaving stroke and, on occasion, a weeper or nick. 

So, with all that said, my current 'favorite' is still the "Barber Pole" handle in 316L stainless steel. The others will remain in rotation.

b/r

RB

I had some similar experiences with the HALO and Barber Pole (weight). From an aesthetic perspective the Barber Pole is one of my favorites. But ultimately, I found the UFO handle provided a more balanced handling experience for the Lupo .95. The Barber Pole wasn't terrible in weight balance, but it was noticeable when compared to the UFO. Of course all of this is said with the standard YMMV disclaimer.