I Have Hit The "Wall"

First off, a big ‘Thank You’ to DFS for running an actual forum in which you can discuss and link to many topics that others do not allow. Those are not forums by my definition.

I stopped buying most North American artisan soaps except for a couple of specific fragrances a long time ago. I think that there’s an elephant in the room that’s not being discussed, and that’s many of them aren’t that good (performance and scent) compared to mainstream soaps, and many are very expensive to use as they contain a lot of water.

One of the big turn offs was scent, and I bought one that was ‘our take on Dior Eau Sauvage’ - you could smell that one in the candle section of the local chain grocery store. Artisan soap makers don’t seem to be artisan perfumers, and should stick to the simpler scents as do many of the European artisan makers like Martin de Candre and Castle Forbes. A trip to Yankee Candle does not enhance a masculine shaving soap for the most part.

As mentioned before about prices rising, you can easily spend $25 for an artisan soap that lasts 3 months if that. For $100-ish, you can buy almost 4 tubs of Castle Forbes from shaving.ie or Connaught, and for $18 ex-VAT you can get 1000ml of 3P that will last you 2 years, and it’s quite good. If you’re not wasting it, you can shave with 1/2g of CF, so that 200ml tub is a year’s worth of shaves. XPEC can be had for around $35 and it’s 250ml. Santa Maria Novella is $71 in the US, and that 220+ ml will last you most of a year, still under the cost of use of many NA artisan soaps, and it would be difficult to find ones as good as SMN. You can get most of a year if not a year from a tub of MdC for around $50. The new version of AdP returns to the Colonia scent, and though pricey, it’s also quite concentrated, so while using it is more expensive than many artisan soaps, it’s not as much more to use as you might think, using a large pea-size dollop instead of a large almond size dollop, and the fragrance is a classic. So when a NA artisan makes a $25-30 soap that will last a year and not smell like a candle shop, give me a call at the old folks home!

I hope we're not like most American artisans.

I hope not either, I have to admit that I haven’t tried any new North American artisan soaps recently. There are North American artisan soaps that I like. I liked the B&M Latha series a lot, as well as Cheshire and Seville. It’s been said that Will is studying with a real perfumer, and that can only help. I also liked the old Strop Shoppe ‘Black Tie’, which is a canned scent - you can buy the fragrance by the 5 gallon drum if you want. MdC and CF are both artisan soaps, but they’re using simpler, more traditional scents, less additives,, and MdC also cures their soaps for 6 months I believe, so they have much less water in them. I don’t mind paying $50+ for 200ml of classically scented soap/cream if it performs well and will last a year. If you’re getting into the $100+ a year range, then you’re competing against cheaper-to-use products like MdC, Santa Maria Novella, Castle Forbes, ABC hard soap (not the pricier cream), Christian Dior, etc, all of which also perform very well. The now-discontinued I Coloniali Mango Oil soap refills were selling for $16/100ml before they were discontinued, and that was a hard, long-lasting soap with superb performance and a unique fragrance. I stocked up.

FWIW. We don't use any "canned" scents. All are our own creation and we don't do dupes.

...which is a canned scent - you can buy the fragrance by the 5 gallon drum if you want. MdC and CF are both artisan soaps, but they’re using simpler, more traditional scents, less additives,,...

As a former vintage cologne collector I can honestly state that one should never judge a men's fragrance based upon price. As an example, Creed is overpriced swill IMO. I would choose a classic like Brut or Aramis over anything they make any & every day. As a note Steve56, you contradict yourself by first praising simple scents to only turn around and make a sweeping statement about "canned" scents to only fall back again on that which I have highlighted in red above. It's confusing at best. Is not a simpler & more traditional scent one that's "canned"? I'd ask you to clarify, but I think it's merely a matter of you like what you like............just like everyone else. 

ALL perfumers have been using synthetics for ages. They are not squeezing fresh oranges & limes into every batch I can assure you.

I would say there’s a difference between synthetic ingredients, i.e. synthetic vanillin vs. a “canned” accord like the Black Tie scent mentioned above.


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...which is a canned scent - you can buy the fragrance by the 5 gallon drum if you want. MdC and CF are both artisan soaps, but they’re using simpler, more traditional scents, less additives,,...

As a former vintage cologne collector I can honestly state that one should never judge a men's fragrance based upon price. As an example, Creed is overpriced swill IMO. I would choose a classic like Brut or Aramis over anything they make any & every day. As a note Steve56, you contradict yourself by first praising simple scents to only turn around and make a sweeping statement about "canned" scents to only fall back again on that which I have highlighted in red above. It's confusing at best. Is not a simpler & more traditional scent one that's "canned"? I'd ask you to clarify, but I think it's merely a matter of you like what you like............just like everyone else. 

ALL perfumers have been using synthetics for ages. They are not squeezing fresh oranges & limes into every batch I can assure you.

I was mainly referring to scents like lavender, rose, sandalwood, citrus, etc, perhaps with a second note. I find that I get less ‘tired’ of the simpler scents for daily use vs the more complex scents, which the English do well and I also enjoy frequently. I don’t believe that I said anything negative about synthetic scents.

First off, a big ‘Thank You’ to DFS for running an actual forum in which you can discuss and link to many topics that others do not allow. Those are not forums by my definition.

I stopped buying most North American artisan soaps except for a couple of specific fragrances a long time ago. I think that there’s an elephant in the room that’s not being discussed, and that’s many of them aren’t that good (performance and scent) compared to mainstream soaps, and many are very expensive to use as they contain a lot of water.

One of the big turn offs was scent, and I bought one that was ‘our take on Dior Eau Sauvage’ - you could smell that one in the candle section of the local chain grocery store. Artisan soap makers don’t seem to be artisan perfumers, and should stick to the simpler scents as do many of the European artisan makers like Martin de Candre and Castle Forbes. A trip to Yankee Candle does not enhance a masculine shaving soap for the most part.

As mentioned before about prices rising, you can easily spend $25 for an artisan soap that lasts 3 months if that. For $100-ish, you can buy almost 4 tubs of Castle Forbes from shaving.ie or Connaught, and for $18 ex-VAT you can get 1000ml of 3P that will last you 2 years, and it’s quite good. If you’re not wasting it, you can shave with 1/2g of CF, so that 200ml tub is a year’s worth of shaves. XPEC can be had for around $35 and it’s 250ml. Santa Maria Novella is $71 in the US, and that 220+ ml will last you most of a year, still under the cost of use of many NA artisan soaps, and it would be difficult to find ones as good as SMN. You can get most of a year if not a year from a tub of MdC for around $50. The new version of AdP returns to the Colonia scent, and though pricey, it’s also quite concentrated, so while using it is more expensive than many artisan soaps, it’s not as much more to use as you might think, using a large pea-size dollop instead of a large almond size dollop, and the fragrance is a classic. So when a NA artisan makes a $25-30 soap that will last a year and not smell like a candle shop, give me a call at the old folks home!

I hope we're not like most American artisans.

Oh don't worry, you're not...

Oh don't worry, you're not...

And that's ok.

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As far as "hitting the wall" is concerned, I think the absolute, final wall, if it hasn't been hit already, will be hit soon. And it's not because soapers aren't doing due diligence and using creativity in their soap bases.

It's because there are physicochemical limits to what a shave soap can do. We have been approaching that limit as an asymptote for the past 3-5 years, at least. Because the curve is asymptotic, further changes/enhancements to soap bases will, OF NECESSITY, make barely perceptible changes. The steep part of the slope is at least a decade behind us.

There will continue to be good soaps and great soaps, but I don't believe there will ever be a soap that "changes the game." No matter what the soaper does. Because it's not possible because of the laws of physics and chemistry.

IMO, enjoy what you've got. If you are like me, you already have a bunch of high-quality shave soaps that do the job perfectly well. Be happy that you live in a time where not only are there people making these great soaps, but you can connect with them on the internet (for purchase, or, in some cases, for discussion)! What a great time to be alive.

As far as "hitting the wall" is concerned, I think the absolute, final wall, if it hasn't been hit already, will be hit soon. And it's not because soapers aren't doing due diligence and using creativity in their soap bases.

It's because there are physicochemical limits to what a shave soap can do. We have been approaching that limit as an asymptote for the past 3-5 years, at least. Because the curve is asymptotic, further changes/enhancements to soap bases will, OF NECESSITY, make barely perceptible changes. The steep part of the slope is at least a decade behind us.

There will continue to be good soaps and great soaps, but I don't believe there will ever be a soap that "changes the game." No matter what the soaper does. Because it's not possible because of the laws of physics and chemistry.

IMO, enjoy what you've got. If you are like me, you already have a bunch of high-quality shave soaps that do the job perfectly well. Be happy that you live in a time where not only are there people making these great soaps, but you can connect with them on the internet (for purchase, or, in some cases, for discussion)! What a great time to be alive.

Hello kingfisher I agree in some aspects and disagree on others. I think we are definitely starting to plateau in terms of what a shave soap could do for us given the current science that is being employed. I had talked with a friend about this just the other day. Making soap is quite a traditional process and involves very little more then mixing lye with fats. As time process our knowledge of the benefits of certain fats and additives expands which lead us to where we are today.

However I see lots of room for improvement and am in fact in the beginning stages of making my own soap (for personal use) to test the boundaries. I see soaps advance in one of two method. Better chemical formulation which makes use of actives vs what we see current state. The second is dabbling in low pH soap typically known as detergent and seeing how to get the lather in a similar state.

Example lets say makers want to incorporate a BHA into their soaps. Salicylic acid is the most popular form of BHA but just adding it to soap doesn't make much of a different. Traditional methods of lye based soap are alkaline in nature and salicylic acid is most effort when the PH is between 3 and 4 on the acid scale. In order to combat this you would either need to make a detergent shaving soap at that PH or look toward an alternative BHA like betaine salicylate which is shown to be effective even at a PH of 6.5. Whilst this is not akaline by any mean I have not seen any test done of how far betaine salicylate can still be effective once we get into the higher PHs.

Testing and more knowledge of chemical interactions and thinking outside the box will lead to the next revolution and will allow us to reach for a higher ceiling. Question is will we ever reach such a state. Hopefully my soap does but again will be too expensive to sell to the mass so that might be another issue. Will bypassing the current ceiling mean making soap inaccessible price-wise that is a very interesting question to ponder.