Gel vs Natural Tip Badger.

What a wild ride this wet shaving process has been.  Like most, I started to save Gillette extortion money but spend more now than ever.  (Different subject for another day). Badger knot tips.  Gelled tips seem all the rage today and frankly I have several because I have a brush maker son and do beta testing for him.   For those that don’t know, gelling hair is a chemical process where they maker adds peroxide etc to uNtreated hair to soften it.  It appears the process also causes the tips to hook.  It’s my opinion that the hook is what creates the soft face feel because the hair tip isn’t what touches the face.  I also suspect that the hook is what causes the characteristic clumping of tips in a gelled knot.  Treated knots are most often two band hair.  In fact I don’t know of a treated silver tip.  Treated knots most often have light or blond tips that frankly are quite attractive but also look a bit artificial if you’re used to natural hair.  I really do like gel tips but not the heavy gooey tips some knots Exhibit. Mild gelling suits me fine.  But I’ll be darned if after all this experimenting if if don’t find myself just liking untreated hair knots the best.  I wonder if treated tips will last as long as natural tips?  I wonder if treated tips makes hair that would be scratchy into usable hair for brush making?  
Anyway, what do you all like and why?  Have you seen any longevity issues with gelled knots?  Do you like em gooey?  Natural?

Nice post. Was the conclusion reached writing up the Declaration Grooming B3 v B5 knot review, although neither as directly nor eloquently as your post

https://damnfineshave.com/thread-heaven-...worst-knot

What trade name does your son sell under?

Thanks Lipripper660  for explaining that process.  I've got a couple of Gel tip badgers and I like them.  I'm not sure I'd say they were my favourites though.  When I listened to the Lather Talk podcast featuring an interview with Neil Breed founder of Heritage Collection Shaving, he talked about using the treated Omega boar knot that is found on the Omega 10098.  It has gel and hooked tips.  So I bought a 10098 to see how good it was - its cheap so that's good.  Well its smell is beyond awful and its a different, more chemical smell from other boars or badgers I've had.  Its actually nauseating for me.   Its gradually coming around but I'm restricting it to palm lathering and not using it to shave until its sufficiently deodorized.  I never noticed this odour issue with gel badgers so I'm thinking the peroxide interacts differently with boar bristles.

Nice post. Was the conclusion reached writing up the Declaration Grooming B3 v B5 knot review, although neither as directly nor eloquently as your post

https://damnfineshave.com/thread-heaven-...worst-knot

What trade name does your son sell under?

Great write up.  And my son trades under Teton Shaves.

Thanks Lipripper660  for explaining that process.  I've got a couple of Gel tip badgers and I like them.  I'm not sure I'd say they were my favourites though.  When I listened to the Lather Talk podcast featuring an interview with Neil Breed founder of Heritage Collection Shaving, he talked about using the treated Omega boar knot that is found on the Omega 10098.  It has gel and hooked tips.  So I bought a 10098 to see how good it was - its cheap so that's good.  Well its smell is beyond awful and its a different, more chemical smell from other boars or badgers I've had.  Its actually nauseating for me.   Its gradually coming around but I'm restricting it to palm lathering and not using it to shave until its sufficiently deodorized.  I never noticed this odour issue with gel badgers so I'm thinking the peroxide interacts differently with boar bristles.

I will try a bleached boar one day but suspect that I’ll like the pristine pig vs the salon tipped pig.  Who knows.  I’m lucky in that I like the pig and badger funk but if I’m hearing you, you are saying the bleached boar smells different than a natural boar?

I wonder if treated tips will last as long as natural tips?

For sure, NOT.

Silvertip is too fine.
Damage is easy to have.

Long story-short, I asked for an explanation and was told the producer became “scared” that
1) our customers would “use hot water to lather, so when the hair connect to the hot water, it will be very soft”
2) more bleaching would reduce the life of the knot
I’m sharing this here because it serves making a couple of important points.
First, it’s generally not a good idea to expose badger-hair knots to hot water.
Second, the methods of processing that tend to produce gel-tips likely involve some trade-off in terms of longevity.
To the best of my knowledge, all 2-band knots of the type we offer have been exposed to some bleaching.
The whiter and/or more gel-like a particular knot’s tips are, the more exposure its hair probably had.
In other words, gel-tipped knots should be assumed to involve some compromise.

I really do like gel tips but not the heavy gooey tips some knots Exhibit. Mild gelling suits me fine.  But I’ll be darned if after all this experimenting if if don’t find myself just liking untreated hair knots the best.  I wonder if treated tips will last as long as natural tips?  I wonder if treated tips makes hair that would be scratchy into usable hair for brush making?

To the best of my knowledge, and I've pressed the question with three suppliers, all so-called two-band hair with light colored tips has been processed to some extent to achieve that appearance. 

There is no doubt in my mind that, all else being equal, excessive processing will likely shorten the life of a knot; however, care and manner of use are also very large factors. (I advise strongly against exposing gel-tipped hair to hot water, and I suspect UV-exposure can also have an effect over time). 

There is also no doubt in my mind that processing with bleach can soften tips and make some hair enjoyable to use that might be otherwise be scritchy.

Gel tips aren't new, and they seem to come in and out of fashion. I personally like variety. Gel-tipped brushes are, to me, like ice-cream. I love the stuff. But I also love meat and potatoes.

FWIW (and whoever doesn't like to read long posts should just skip this one), what follows (all of it) is from a Knot Notes entry on our website from April 2018.

As referenced in the notes corresponding to 2CLSA5 knots, the order for those knots followed “protracted discussions largely focused on samples exchanged in both directions.” More specifically, we based that order on two distinct sample types, one designated by the producer as K4 and the other L1. The fundamental difference between those types was the extent to which they were exposed to bleach in the course of ordinary processing. We had been pressing the supplier for almost 1 ½ years to develop a reliably controllable process for production of knots with so-called gel-tips. The L1 samples appeared to reflect achievement of our objective in that regard, and so we eagerly placed an order for 150 L1-type knots. When that order arrived, however, it was almost immediately apparent that the knots we received were more like the K4 than the L1 samples, which isn’t to say they were/are not very good knots; they just didn’t have what we would call gel-tips.

Long story-short, I asked for an explanation and was told the producer became “scared” that 1) our customers would “use hot water to lather, so when the hair connect to the hot water, it will be very soft” and 2) more bleaching would reduce the life of the knot. I’m sharing this here because it serves making a couple of important points. First, it’s generally not a good idea to expose badger-hair knots to hot water. Second, the methods of processing that tend to produce gel-tips likely involve some trade-off in terms of longevity. To the best of my knowledge, all 2-band knots of the type we offer have been exposed to some bleaching. The whiter and/or more gel-like a particular knot’s tips are, the more exposure its hair probably had. In other words, gel-tipped knots should be assumed to involve some compromise. I don’t think of that as either good or bad; it’s just a matter of striking an optimal balance for the sake of producing desired characteristics. These knots strike a different balance than the 2CLSA5s or 2CLSB5s, which turned out to be closer to the K4 samples. 2CLSD5s are like the L1 samples. As expected, the ones I’ve tried have been luxuriously soft. Correspondingly, they aren't what I'd call scrubby or long on presence.

We can’t say whether or to what extent all of the 2CLSD5 knots will exhibit gel-tips. There will probably be some variance, and how knots are used (e.g., with what products) can affect results.

As for care and maintenance, although I mostly use hard soaps and face lather, I’d say gel-tips typically aren’t best suited for hard-soap destruction or aggressive lathering. And keep in mind that they don’t like hot water. In any case, curling tips sooner or later is fairly common with gel-tipped knots.

What is your response to those well regarded claiming the best lather producing knots are higher loft and softer irrespective of soap or creme being lathered?

What is your response to those well regarded claiming the best lather producing knots are higher loft and softer irrespective of soap or creme being lathered?

I don't know whom you are referring to, but I generally make my mind up for myself with regard to questions such as that.

In any case, it can depend on many factors, including product combinations and techniques.

I generally don't analyze brushes, razors, or soaps to decided what I like. I decide what I like and then try to figure out why, and what about the possible reasons might serve the next decision whether not to buy something. 

I make choices based on weighing factors related to effectiveness (in my use) and enjoyment. There are objective factors involved, but the assessment of enjoyment basically comes down to what I reach for, and that's highly subjective. 

When I write about this stuff, I try to distinguish between what is fact and what is opinion.