Artificial scarcity

Nick's right about that. Being from the EU I see it all the time on my frequent trips home to Ireland. Phoenix & Beau, Wickhams and on. You know exactly what your getting.

"I'm not new in this hobby so I don't get excited that easily like most of the new members. A great number of members in today's fora are relatively new, so I don't expect from them to understand."

Understand what?

I've been wet shaving since 1991 and got excited 26 years ago. Young guys should get excited. The more artisans the better. B&M is a good soap but I can list quite a few that I think are much better. More soap makers is great imo.

Understand that it's meaningless to buy any new soap that hits the market.

But, we've all been there.

I did that mistake as a newbie but now I've kept only those that I truly enjoy, for example the SDV, CRSW, Nuavia and I Coloniali.
CRSW is the only American I use, since I fully trust Larry. I've never had a single problem with his products, soaps or lotions. Well-made products, simple, enjoyable and not overpowering scents, unlike others that need paragraphs and write a whole story to describe their scents and you have no idea what you're about to smell when you finally receive it.

Incorrect. If your reserve base is Le Grande Chypre & Cologne Russe yes I have. I was sent a large sample and a partially used tub of both above from a long time friend on shavemyface.

No no, quite correct. The Reserve soaps were only fully made available today, and samples have only been available for a month. But I don't want to clutter up the thread with that discussion, so shoot me a PM if you'd like and I'll send some samples your way.

And... back then, three- four years ago, there were only a handful of known artisans, for example Pannacrema in which I'm referring to, MDC and Mike's. No B&M, LPL, L&L etc.

Six years ago, I made a list of all the artisan shaving soap makers I could find with quick and simple Google searches.  I stopped at 300, and then deleted the list realizing it was both irrelevant and pointless.  Fifteen years ago, there were only a handful of artisan soapmakers.  Combined with the larger soapmakers, there was a readily available supply of soaps and creams.

It seems that today anyone can make an "artisanal" product in his house and sell it.

That has been true for centuries.

Things back then were different. Artisanal soap was something new. Wetshavers were doing their best to try one. One not dozens of them. Some like the one I'm using as an example took advantage of it, at least it seems to me like that.

Art of Shaving, Crabtree & Evelyn, Em's Place, Surrey / Van der Hagen and Williams all sold shaving soap in the 1990s.  By the mid 2000s, Mama Bear, St. Charles Shave, Kiss My Face Mama's Herbal Creations and Pirates Cove had joined the fray.  During this entire time, the were artisans selling bath and shaving soaps at local arts and crafts fairs.  Since long before my time, there was Dove bath soap, which does pretty well as a shave soap.  So to say there were or are artificially created shortages makes no sense whatsoever.  If some individuals get their record needle stuck on one product, then they would do well to look at the forest instead of only a particular tree.

Now we read about a new artisan almost every month. Is this logical? How many artisans you think this hobby can stand?

Since there are hundreds, or more likely thousands, of artisans who make shaving soap, it would be at least that many.  What difference does it make how many artisan soapmakers are around, as long as it is more than five or so?  Don't forget about the larger soapmakers, as well.  Artisan or not, what matters is that there is a readily available supply of affordable products.  The cream rises to the top.  That is called capitalism.

Praised soaps on the wetshaving forums is not always a good thing. Maybe they are not praised for the obvious reason. And maybe that's why we don't read about them after a while.

There is a huge amount of shilling and fake reviews on the forums overall, even if not much at all here.  The shilling is often clumsy and easy to spot, however.  In my own experience, if a soap is widely praised over an extended period of time, then there is a better than average chance that it will be good.  And soaps that fade into oblivion?  Sometimes they are displaced by something better, but not often they are simply no longer a novelty or the soap of the day.

It happens with the razors and brushes as well.

Like there aren't a mountain of safety razors and brushes of all sorts available.  If a fellow cannot find great traditional shaving gear at a price he can afford, then he either did not do his homework or should switch to an electric shaver.  I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but in today's marketplace there really isn't any cause for complaint.  We are offered a gourmet buffet of shaving gear, all available with a few keystrokes.

Interesting post.

I think we have to clarify the meaning of artisan and artisanal products. Artisans can't be large companies by definition.
Sure there were makers of shaving soaps, but as far as it concerns the average wet shaver that didn't have to google to find 300+ different makers, the well-known and tested artisans were only a few.
Let's not compare the current artisan market with the one we used to know a few years ago. I've lost the count of artisanal products currently available a long time ago.

Does anyone think that all these artisans comply with any regulation? EU cosmetic regulations are strict. Can you say the same about the American? No doubt why the American artisans are so many nowadays.

Nick's right about that. Being from the EU I see it all the time on my frequent trips home to Ireland.  Phoenix & Beau, Wickhams and on. You know exactly what your getting.

Actually, several of the larger American artisans have begun bringing our fragrances (the chief source of difficulty) into compliance with IFRA/EU regulation. I believe that PAA has had its CaD soap certified for sale in the UK and EU, and Brian Krampert is in the process of having his product manufactured according to EU specs as well. There was a rumor that Dr. Jon had found a European manufacturer for his product, but you'd have to ask the man himself to confirm that. And my own Reserve soaps have fully IFRA-compliant fragrances, which is why the required allergen declarations are present in the various ingredient lists.

The point here is that progress is being made. But, for the smaller American companies, it's neither practical nor attractive to seek EU certification. It's fairly expensive to ship product across the Atlantic, and the market is still somewhat small compared to the States. So it's unlikely that most American companies will have their products certified, largely because it makes little economic sense to do so. But the larger, better known, mostly full-time manufacturers are getting there.

Ah, new soaps!  Then, these I look forward to trying.

Incorrect. If your reserve base is Le Grande Chypre & Cologne Russe yes I have. I was sent a large sample and a partially used tub of both above from a long time friend on shavemyface.

No no, quite correct. The Reserve soaps were only fully made available today, and samples have only been available for a month. But I don't want to clutter up the thread with that discussion, so shoot me a PM if you'd like and I'll send some samples your way.

Six years ago, I made a list of all the artisan shaving soap makers I could find with quick and simple Google searches.  I stopped at 300, and then deleted the list realizing it was both irrelevant and pointless.  Fifteen years ago, there were only a handful of artisan soapmakers.  Combined with the larger soapmakers, there was a readily available supply of soaps and creams.

That has been true for centuries.

Art of Shaving, Crabtree & Evelyn, Em's Place, Surrey / Van der Hagen and Williams all sold shaving soap in the 1990s.  By the mid 2000s, Mama Bear, St. Charles Shave, Kiss My Face Mama's Herbal Creations and Pirates Cove had joined the fray.  During this entire time, the were artisans selling bath and shaving soaps at local arts and crafts fairs.  Since long before my time, there was Dove bath soap, which does pretty well as a shave soap.  So to say there were or are artificially created shortages makes no sense whatsoever.  If some individuals get their record needle stuck on one product, then they would do well to look at the forest instead of only a particular tree.

Since there are hundreds, or more likely thousands, of artisans who make shaving soap, it would be at least that many.  What difference does it make how many artisan soapmakers are around, as long as it is more than five or so?  Don't forget about the larger soapmakers, as well.  Artisan or not, what matters is that there is a readily available supply of affordable products.  The cream rises to the top.  That is called capitalism.

There is a huge amount of shilling and fake reviews on the forums overall, even if not much at all here.  The shilling is often clumsy and easy to spot, however.  In my own experience, if a soap is widely praised over an extended period of time, then there is a better than average chance that it will be good.  And soaps that fade into oblivion?  Sometimes they are displaced by something better, but not often they are simply no longer a novelty or the soap of the day.

Like there aren't a mountain of safety razors and brushes of all sorts available.  If a fellow cannot find great traditional shaving gear at a price he can afford, then he either did not do his homework or should switch to an electric shaver.  I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but in today's marketplace there really isn't any cause for complaint.  We are offered a gourmet buffet of shaving gear, all available with a few keystrokes.

Interesting post.

I think we have to clarify the meaning of artisan and artisanal products. Artisans can't be large companies by definition.
Sure there were makers of shaving soaps, but as far as it concerns the average wet shaver that didn't have to google to find 300+ different makers, the well-known and tested artisans were only a few.
Let's not compare the current artisan market with the one we used to know a few years ago. I've lost the count of artisanal products currently available a long time ago.

Does anyone think that all these artisans comply with any regulation? EU cosmetic regulations are strict. Can you say the same about the American? No doubt why the American artisans are so many nowadays.

Nick's right about that. Being from the EU I see it all the time on my frequent trips home to Ireland.  Phoenix & Beau, Wickhams and on. You know exactly what your getting.

Actually, several of the larger American artisans have begun bringing our fragrances (the chief source of difficulty) into compliance with IFRA/EU regulation. I believe that PAA has had its CaD soap certified for sale in the UK and EU, and Brian Krampert is in the process of having his product manufactured according to EU specs as well. There was a rumor that Dr. Jon had found a European manufacturer for his product, but you'd have to ask the man himself to confirm that. And my own Reserve soaps have fully IFRA-compliant fragrances, which is why the required allergen declarations are present in the various ingredient lists.

The point here is that progress is being made. But, for the smaller American companies, it's neither practical nor attractive to seek EU certification. It's fairly expensive to ship product across the Atlantic, and the market is still somewhat small compared to the States. So it's unlikely that most American companies will have their products certified, largely because it makes little economic sense to do so. But the larger, better known, mostly full-time manufacturers are getting there.

Regulations have been made for a reason. Why people have to trust the makers? Because they seem like nice guys?

If anyone can make a soap in his house without complying with any regulation and start selling it, then there's a problem. Health issues can be caused to several people that have allergies and we all have to be careful with these matters. I'm not saying that uncertified products will cause problem to anyone, but why should I trust any of these makers? Because they say so?

Chanel had to change the No. 5 formula, one of the most iconic products, to comply with the EU regulations.

Ah, new soaps!  Then, these I look forward to trying.

Given your preferences, I think you'll quite like these. Like I said, send me a PM and I'll drop them in the mail.

Incorrect. If your reserve base is Le Grande Chypre & Cologne Russe yes I have. I was sent a large sample and a partially used tub of both above from a long time friend on shavemyface.

No no, quite correct. The Reserve soaps were only fully made available today, and samples have only been available for a month. But I don't want to clutter up the thread with that discussion, so shoot me a PM if you'd like and I'll send some samples your way.

Interesting post.

I think we have to clarify the meaning of artisan and artisanal products. Artisans can't be large companies by definition.
Sure there were makers of shaving soaps, but as far as it concerns the average wet shaver that didn't have to google to find 300+ different makers, the well-known and tested artisans were only a few.
Let's not compare the current artisan market with the one we used to know a few years ago. I've lost the count of artisanal products currently available a long time ago.

Does anyone think that all these artisans comply with any regulation? EU cosmetic regulations are strict. Can you say the same about the American? No doubt why the American artisans are so many nowadays.

Nick's right about that. Being from the EU I see it all the time on my frequent trips home to Ireland.  Phoenix & Beau, Wickhams and on. You know exactly what your getting.

Actually, several of the larger American artisans have begun bringing our fragrances (the chief source of difficulty) into compliance with IFRA/EU regulation. I believe that PAA has had its CaD soap certified for sale in the UK and EU, and Brian Krampert is in the process of having his product manufactured according to EU specs as well. There was a rumor that Dr. Jon had found a European manufacturer for his product, but you'd have to ask the man himself to confirm that. And my own Reserve soaps have fully IFRA-compliant fragrances, which is why the required allergen declarations are present in the various ingredient lists.

The point here is that progress is being made. But, for the smaller American companies, it's neither practical nor attractive to seek EU certification. It's fairly expensive to ship product across the Atlantic, and the market is still somewhat small compared to the States. So it's unlikely that most American companies will have their products certified, largely because it makes little economic sense to do so. But the larger, better known, mostly full-time manufacturers are getting there.

Regulations have been made for a reason. Why people have to trust the makers? Because they seem like nice guys?

If anyone can make a soap in his house without complying with any regulation and start selling it, then there's a problem. Health issues can be caused to several people that have allergies and we all have to be careful with these matters. I'm not saying that uncertified products will cause problem to anyone, but why should I trust any of these makers? Because they say so?

Chanel had to change the No. 5 formula, one of the most iconic products, to comply with the EU regulations.

Yes it did, but Chanel is headquartered in France, not the States. The EU has no jurisdiction in the US, so why should US makers bother to comply with EU regulation if they have no intention of selling to the EU? Those who are larger/more interested in the practice, like myself, are moving forward to seek EU certification, but, for those whose business is not dependent upon selling to Europe, there is no need to undergo the expensive testing and development required to comply with European regulation. You don't necessary have to trust an American manufacturer, but you also cannot impose the regulations of another legal system upon Americans on their home soil.

Ah, new soaps!  Then, these I look forward to trying.

Given your preferences, I think you'll quite like these. Like I said, send me a PM and I'll drop them in the mail.

No no, quite correct. The Reserve soaps were only fully made available today, and samples have only been available for a month. But I don't want to clutter up the thread with that discussion, so shoot me a PM if you'd like and I'll send some samples your way.



Actually, several of the larger American artisans have begun bringing our fragrances (the chief source of difficulty) into compliance with IFRA/EU regulation. I believe that PAA has had its CaD soap certified for sale in the UK and EU, and Brian Krampert is in the process of having his product manufactured according to EU specs as well. There was a rumor that Dr. Jon had found a European manufacturer for his product, but you'd have to ask the man himself to confirm that. And my own Reserve soaps have fully IFRA-compliant fragrances, which is why the required allergen declarations are present in the various ingredient lists.

The point here is that progress is being made. But, for the smaller American companies, it's neither practical nor attractive to seek EU certification. It's fairly expensive to ship product across the Atlantic, and the market is still somewhat small compared to the States. So it's unlikely that most American companies will have their products certified, largely because it makes little economic sense to do so. But the larger, better known, mostly full-time manufacturers are getting there.

Regulations have been made for a reason. Why people have to trust the makers? Because they seem like nice guys?

If anyone can make a soap in his house without complying with any regulation and start selling it, then there's a problem. Health issues can be caused to several people that have allergies and we all have to be careful with these matters. I'm not saying that uncertified products will cause problem to anyone, but why should I trust any of these makers? Because they say so?

Chanel had to change the No. 5 formula, one of the most iconic products, to comply with the EU regulations.

Yes it did, but Chanel is headquartered in France, not the States. The EU has no jurisdiction in the US, so why should US makers bother to comply with EU regulation if they have no intention of selling to the EU? Those who are larger/more interested in the practice, like myself, are moving forward to seek EU certification, but, for those whose business is not dependent upon selling to Europe, there is no need to undergo the expensive testing and development required to comply with European regulation. You don't necessary have to trust an American manufacturer, but you also cannot impose the regulations of another legal system upon Americans on their home soil.

This is not what I meant. If you read my previous posts again, you'll understand it.
I wonder if you, not you personally but the American artisans as a whole, have to comply with any regulation, not the European specifically. Or you just make a soap and offer it to us. Chanel was an example. In Europe, from the smallest to the largest company, they have to comply with them to stay in business.
I know that European artisans have to comply with the strict cosmetic regulations we have here. Americans can't be sold here because they need to be certified, EU knows that most are uncertified and takes measures. Most vendors, if not all, would love to sell the most famous American artisanal products but they simply can't, if they want to be legal.
It's not exactly a matter of trust to me, but a matter of health.
Don't get me wrong, since we're having this interesting discussion I want to tell you that I had problems with some of your soaps in the past. I don't know if it was an ingredient or an EO/FO that caused these issues, but I had to stop using them. This is not something knew, I sent you an email regarding this matter a few months ago. I gave them to friends. I hope they enjoy them more that I did. I don't have allergies in general or a sensitive skin, so it seemed strange to me. I've tried about 7 B&Ms, including samples, some of them didn't agree with me. Skin irritation, bumps etc. I now have one B&M. I don't use it regularly. I'm not saying that I don't trust you as a maker, I'm saying that I stopped using B&M, because I believe they are not for me. If you were certified, believe me, I'd be more sure about your products regarding allergies. That's why regulations are so important for both the makers and the consumers. Again(!), I'm not referring to the European specifically, but strict cosmetic regulations in general. Name them American. If I knew that the American cosmetic regulations were stricter, you bet I'd have tried a lot more American artisanal products. I just want to be sure about a product. At this moment, I can't be sure about most of the Americans. Even you said in your earlier post that your Reserve scents comply with some regulations, but I can't recall any of your posts referring to your other lines. Is it a reason why some of us had problems with them? I know believe that scents were probably causing the issues I had.

Ah, new soaps!  Then, these I look forward to trying.

Given your preferences, I think you'll quite like these. Like I said, send me a PM and I'll drop them in the mail.

Regulations have been made for a reason. Why people have to trust the makers? Because they seem like nice guys?

If anyone can make a soap in his house without complying with any regulation and start selling it, then there's a problem. Health issues can be caused to several people that have allergies and we all have to be careful with these matters. I'm not saying that uncertified products will cause problem to anyone, but why should I trust any of these makers? Because they say so?

Chanel had to change the No. 5 formula, one of the most iconic products, to comply with the EU regulations.

Yes it did, but Chanel is headquartered in France, not the States. The EU has no jurisdiction in the US, so why should US makers bother to comply with EU regulation if they have no intention of selling to the EU? Those who are larger/more interested in the practice, like myself, are moving forward to seek EU certification, but, for those whose business is not dependent upon selling to Europe, there is no need to undergo the expensive testing and development required to comply with European regulation. You don't necessary have to trust an American manufacturer, but you also cannot impose the regulations of another legal system upon Americans on their home soil.

This is not what I meant. If you read my previous posts again, you'll understand it.
I wonder if you, not you personally but the American artisans as a whole, have to comply with any regulation, not the European specifically. Or you just make a soap and offer it to us. Chanel was an example. In Europe, from the smallest to the largest company, they have to comply with them to stay in business.
I know that European artisans have to comply with the strict cosmetic regulations we have here. Americans can't be sold here because they need to be certified, EU knows that most are uncertified and takes measures. Most vendors, if not all, would love to sell the most famous American artisanal products but they simply can't, if they want to be legal.
It's not exactly a matter of trust to me, but a matter of health.
Don't get me wrong, since we're having this interesting discussion I want to tell you that I had problems with some of your soaps in the past. I don't know if it was an ingredient or an EO/FO that caused these issues, but I had to stop using them. This is not something knew, I sent you an email regarding this matter a few months ago. I gave them to friends. I hope they enjoy them more that I did. I don't have allergies in general or a sensitive skin, so it seemed strange to me. I've tried about 7 B&Ms, including samples, some of them didn't agree with me. Skin irritation, bumps etc. I now have one B&M. I don't use it regularly. I'm not saying that I don't trust you as a maker, I'm saying that I stopped using B&M, because I believe they are not for me. If you were certified, believe me, I'd be more sure about your products regarding allergies. That's why regulations are so important for both the makers and the consumers. Again(!), I'm not referring to the European specifically, but strict cosmetic regulations in general. Name them American. If I knew that the American cosmetic regulations were stricter, you bet I'd have tried a lot more American artisanal products. I just want to be sure about a product. At this moment, I can't be sure about most of the Americans. Even you said in your earlier post that your Reserve scents comply with some regulations, but I can't recall any of your posts referring to your other lines. Is it a reason why some of us had problems with them? I know believe that scents were probably causing the issues I had.

No, I understood your point. All I was saying is that the situation with Chanel is not quite the same thing. But you're right that there should be some kind of regulation to prevent people from just tossing whatever-the-heck into a pot and calling it soap.

That said, IFRA regulations do not prevent you from having a reaction, nor does the lack of regulation indicate that the product is unsafe. There are plenty of certified soaps that cause allergic reactions all the time. ToOBS Sandalwood comes to mind, as does Proraso Red, to which I can personally speak regarding a sensitivity. Mitchell's Wool Fat, long regarded as a soap for sensitive skin, burned me like nothing else ever has, and is fully IFRA/EU compliant.

The point here is that the relationship between fragrance and the human immune system is far too complex to ever be worked out by a set of regulations, no matter how well-considered or encompassing. Is there a possibility that an American soap might cause irritation or a skin reaction? Absolutely. Is there an equal possibility that an EU-Certified, IFRA-Compliant fragrance might do the same? Most definitely.

Given your preferences, I think you'll quite like these. Like I said, send me a PM and I'll drop them in the mail.


Yes it did, but Chanel is headquartered in France, not the States. The EU has no jurisdiction in the US, so why should US makers bother to comply with EU regulation if they have no intention of selling to the EU? Those who are larger/more interested in the practice, like myself, are moving forward to seek EU certification, but, for those whose business is not dependent upon selling to Europe, there is no need to undergo the expensive testing and development required to comply with European regulation. You don't necessary have to trust an American manufacturer, but you also cannot impose the regulations of another legal system upon Americans on their home soil.

This is not what I meant. If you read my previous posts again, you'll understand it.
I wonder if you, not you personally but the American artisans as a whole, have to comply with any regulation, not the European specifically. Or you just make a soap and offer it to us. Chanel was an example. In Europe, from the smallest to the largest company, they have to comply with them to stay in business.
I know that European artisans have to comply with the strict cosmetic regulations we have here. Americans can't be sold here because they need to be certified, EU knows that most are uncertified and takes measures. Most vendors, if not all, would love to sell the most famous American artisanal products but they simply can't, if they want to be legal.
It's not exactly a matter of trust to me, but a matter of health.
Don't get me wrong, since we're having this interesting discussion I want to tell you that I had problems with some of your soaps in the past. I don't know if it was an ingredient or an EO/FO that caused these issues, but I had to stop using them. This is not something knew, I sent you an email regarding this matter a few months ago. I gave them to friends. I hope they enjoy them more that I did. I don't have allergies in general or a sensitive skin, so it seemed strange to me. I've tried about 7 B&Ms, including samples, some of them didn't agree with me. Skin irritation, bumps etc. I now have one B&M. I don't use it regularly. I'm not saying that I don't trust you as a maker, I'm saying that I stopped using B&M, because I believe they are not for me. If you were certified, believe me, I'd be more sure about your products regarding allergies. That's why regulations are so important for both the makers and the consumers. Again(!), I'm not referring to the European specifically, but strict cosmetic regulations in general. Name them American. If I knew that the American cosmetic regulations were stricter, you bet I'd have tried a lot more American artisanal products. I just want to be sure about a product. At this moment, I can't be sure about most of the Americans. Even you said in your earlier post that your Reserve scents comply with some regulations, but I can't recall any of your posts referring to your other lines. Is it a reason why some of us had problems with them? I know believe that scents were probably causing the issues I had.

No, I understood your point. All I was saying is that the situation with Chanel is not quite the same thing. But you're right that there should be some kind of regulation to prevent people from just tossing whatever-the-heck into a pot and calling it soap.

That said, IFRA regulations do not prevent you from having a reaction, nor does the lack of regulation indicate that the product is unsafe. There are plenty of certified soaps that cause allergic reactions all the time. ToOBS Sandalwood comes to mind, as does Proraso Red, to which I can personally speak regarding a sensitivity. Mitchell's Wool Fat, long regarded as a soap for sensitive skin, burned me like nothing else ever has, and is fully IFRA/EU compliant.

The point here is that the relationship between fragrance and the human immune system is far too complex to ever be worked out by a set of regulations, no matter how well-considered or encompassing. Is there a possibility that an American soap might cause irritation or a skin reaction? Absolutely. Is there an equal possibility that an EU-Certified, IFRA-Compliant fragrance might do the same? Most definitely.

Based on this, we don't have to pay much attention if a product is certified or not, since human immune system is far too complex...

Still regulations play a role and are able to prevent many unpleasant situations, we like it or not, and we must applaud the makers that are certified.

Based on this, we don't have to pay much attention if a product is certified or not, since human immune system is far too complex...

Still regulations play a role and are able to prevent many unpleasant situations, we like it or not, and we must applaud the makers that are certified.

Well, no, that's not what I said. Regulations still have plenty of part to play. Just don't use them as your sole indication of whether a product will cause you skin irritation or not.