Apprenticeships for Artisans

As an amateur machinist, I'll have to say that it's not necessarily the case that the machinist James hires will be learning the craft. If the machinist is just turning out razors without learning about the design process then he/she is learning nothing about razor making, only applying generic (but still considerable) fitting & turning skills to a specific job (razor making). Otherwise one might say that by giving a computer the code to run a CNC mill the computer has been made be an apprentice and may one day go on to become a master razor maker. And yes, counting stock is part of the process of making a razor, I need to count stock because if I don't have any in my workshop then nothing gets made.

On the other hand, if they *are* learning how to design razors, what makes a razor mild or aggressive, what the spacing in the fingers of an open comb affects &c., then that's a different story. It depends on what the machinist is actually doing and is being taught.

Anecdotally, I've modified molds for implantable biomedical devices but I'm not going to say that I was an apprentice moldmaker, I was told to make certain cuts here and there, and that was it. Nothing learnt, other than that mold surfaces are very smooth and shiny, and fit together very well.

On the other hand, if they *are* learning how to design razors, what makes a razor mild or aggressive, what the spacing in the fingers of an open comb affects &c., then that's a different story. It depends on what the machinist is actually doing and is being taught.

James' razors are highly customized. A person making razors with James will have to understand mild vs. aggressive, what each customer wants and why. Maybe James will do his best to keep secrets here, but that will surely undercut the effectiveness of his employee. I'm sure he'll hire someone he feels he can trust.

James' razors are highly customized. A person making razors with James will have to understand mild vs. aggressive, what each customer wants and why. Maybe James will do his best to keep secrets here, but that will surely undercut the effectiveness of his employee. I'm sure he'll hire someone he feels he can trust.

I see your point and agree that it'll be someone he can trust (why hire someone you don't trust?) but I feel we'll have to disagree about what the machinist needs to know. There can be a very effective division of labour where James does all the decisions plus some machining and the machinist just makes things, "make head combo A/B with handle X, all in titanium with a satin finish" doesn't need much understanding.

Sure, the machinist might pick up bits of info here and there just by observation of the finished parts, but I'd say it's a pretty big stretch to say that the machinist *has* to know these things. I've had to outsource one-offs to others and had custom designs handed to me, but all that was ever really needed were the drawings/CAD files. Granted it's nice and useful to know why the design came out a certain way, but it's not necessary at all.

I've actually just finished making a couple of razor handles for someone and I'd guess the design:machining time ratio 1:2, albeit with the design time being spread over a couple of weeks and me using relatively slow manual machinery. Not sure what that ratio would be like for James, but I can easily see the machining being the bottleneck, and hence what the machinist has to focus on.

I see your point and agree that it'll be someone he can trust (why hire someone you don't trust?) but I feel we'll have to disagree about what the machinist needs to know.  There can be a very effective division of labour where James does all the decisions plus some machining and the machinist just makes things, "make head combo A/B with handle X, all in titanium with a satin finish" doesn't need much understanding.  

Sure, the machinist might pick up bits of info here and there just by observation of the finished parts, but I'd say it's a pretty big stretch to say that the machinist *has* to know these things.  I've had to outsource one-offs to others and had custom designs handed to me, but all that was ever really needed were the drawings/CAD files.  Granted it's nice and useful to know why the design came out a certain way, but it's not necessary at all.

I've actually just finished making a couple of razor handles for someone and I'd guess the design:machining time ratio 1:2, albeit with the design time being spread over a couple of weeks and me using relatively slow manual machinery.  Not sure what that ratio would be like for James, but I can easily see the machining being the bottleneck, and hence what the machinist has to focus on.

In a 2 man operation, where both men are working the machines, day in and day out, I think you're going to figure out exactly what the boss is doing, and how. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how it is possible for someone like James, in this situation to keep vital trade secrets from his employee unless you want your employee to be completely ineffective in his job. This is, in all it's resultant effects, an apprenticeship. This employee/apprentice may or may not, go out on his own later to make his own razors, but he will know exactly how, should he ever choose to do so.

In a 2 man operation, where both men are working the machines, day in and day out, I think you're going to figure out exactly what the boss is doing, and how. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how it is possible for someone like James, in this situation to keep vital trade secrets from his employee unless you want your employee to be completely ineffective in his job. This is, in all it's resultant effects, an apprenticeship. This employee/apprentice may or may not, go out on his own later to make his own razors, but he will know exactly how, should he ever choose to do so.

We're moving away from the original point here. In the post you quoted I am addressing your point that the machinist must know these things. To quote your earlier post, with the relevant part bolded:

James' razors are highly customized. A person making razors with James will have to understand mild vs. aggressive, what each customer wants and why. Maybe James will do his best to keep secrets here, but that will surely undercut the effectiveness of his employee. I'm sure he'll hire someone he feels he can trust.

Where you state that the understanding of razor design is something that the machinist must know. You then changed the topic in your latest post saying that the machinist will watch and learn, therefore it becomes an apprenticeship. Of course he'll learn from observation, and also I highly doubt there are any trade secrets here since the entire design is apparent in the finished product, versus something like blacksmithing where the tempering process might be a secret that the master can hide. But, as per my previous posts in this discussion, said learning is not required to make razors. All that is required is that he can operate the machinery James has, which is a generic skill. The machinist might indeed learn from observation, or he might become an apprentice (the two should not be conflated), but he does not *need* to learn, and therefore does not *need* to become an apprentice, contrary to your claim.

I am wondering if our disagreement is stemming from you conflating the manufacturing processes for safety razors with those of items that require more hands-on work, like artisans who make straight razors.

I think our disagreement stems from differences in our understanding of the word apprentice. I use the most simple and widely agreed upon definition, "a person who is learning a trade from a skilled employer".

This can be done through observation, hands-on trial and error under the tutelage of an employer, or by verbal instruction. Anyway you want to slice it, James' employee will be receiving an apprenticeship under this wide definition, and in the spirit of the OP. Whether or not he *needs* to learn, doesn't take away from the fact that he can or will. And there is no doubt that this apprentice will know how to produce a better razor by working with James than if he were to just buy a razor to reverse engineer.

And it is great to see these skills being learned by others through apprenticeships, employee based or otherwise!

I think our disagreement stems from differences in our understanding of the word apprentice. I use the most simple and widely agreed upon definition, "a person who is learning a trade from a skilled employer".

This can be done through observation, hands-on trial and error under the tutelage of an employer, or by verbal instruction. Anyway you want to slice it, James' employee will be receiving an apprenticeship under this wide definition, and in the spirit of the OP. Whether or not he *needs* to learn, doesn't take away from the fact that he can or will. And there is no doubt that this apprentice will know how to produce a better razor by working with James than if he were to just buy a razor to reverse engineer.

And it is great to see these skills being learned by others through apprenticeships, employee based or otherwise!

I still have to disagree with you here, and I suspect you're giving too little credit to the machinist. Let me put it another way. Suppose James brings on a machinist to make razors, and spends his day in the shop while James handles customers and designing, occasionally popping in to help as needed. His day ends up something like this:

1) Load stock into CNC mill
2) Load tooling into mill
3) Select program and hit "run"
4) Unload machined part and polish it while the machine makes the next one
5) Repeat
6) Clean machinery at end of day

Where is the learning in that? All of the above is something a qualified machinist (which, as per your post, you say it sounds like he'll be hiring) already knows how to do or can get from the manual, there is typically one set method and one set result for everything except the polishing method, and the end result had better be the same in any case. Nothing in that process is specific to razor making. Watching James do any of the above will not be any more instructive than, say, reading the manual that came with the mill. At most he'll learn something like the fact that the X axis gib likes to work itself loose, so check it every hour. This is what I mean by saying that the machinist doesn't need to learn anything to do his job.

For comparison, let's look at a straight razor maker, where the process might go something like:

1) Cut blade out from steel with bandsaw, leaving a bit around the outline for finer work depending on how good you are
2) Finish outline of blade with a belt grinder, being careful how hard you push so that the belt doesn't catch the blade
3) Grind blade. Experience and a steady hand is key to getting the grind symmetrical
4) Temper the blade
5) Remove scale and finish blade surface without wrecking the temper
6) Sharpen blade, similar yet different to sharpening a knife.

A machinist would do a middling to good job of all of the above steps but would most likely still have things to learn from the master, I'd expect this to be especially true in steps 3, 5 and 6. Something like how hot the blade can feel in step 5 before it overheats, or the skill to get the grind to start at the same height on both sides.

This isn't to denigrate James, who does excellent work and is a great designer, but to say that depending on the work James has for him, there might not be anything for the machinist to learn from James other than the design side of things, which as a machinist he may not be involved in at all.

Edit: I do have to agree with you though, that it'd be a good thing if more people were picking up these skills. I know this wouldn't be the best use of James' money, but if he could pick up someone with no machining experience and teach him or her, that would be a good apprenticeship.

Since this has turned into a Wolfman Apprentice question....why doesn't someone just ask him what his plans are instead of speculating in this case? If he answers great. If he chooses to not disclose, everyone can wait to see what he does.

I would if I cared, but I don't.

This thread really isn't about Wolfman, and I think it got dragged out of proportion as an example.

This thread is really about the apprenticeship model in the entire wet shaving industry.

Another thread spiraling over semantics. The difference between employee and apprentice is that the primary purpose of the apprenticeship is to learn. It's like a classroom. An employee may or may not become knowledgeable, but the reason for his employment is primarily to help the owner rather than to become knowledgeable or skilled himself.

I hate to say it, but I think the internet has greatly reduced the need for need for such arrangements for many skills. I know that many of our excellent artisan soap makers were not taught from an old master; they learned online. I, personally, taught myself CAD from online videos and articles. Not all skills are learned that way, of course, but I think the days of trading room/board for a laborer are behind us.