A serious question on Soap/Cream Reviews

Maybe we need to start a training and certification program?  Assuming that one doesn't already exist that is.  I think its important that when one "judges" a product they should be qualified and there should be a general agreement as to what the criteria for judging are.  The artisans (don't go there) themselves should form a Guild that would have commonly accepted criteria and even training for judges.  Its done for beer judges (a serious business) so why not shaving soap?
Marko

As much as I would love to see this I don't think that will happen, at least for a very long time. Some of us who are shaving hobbyists and the soap makers might be interested in something like this but TBH there probably aren't enough of us in the wet shaving community that are interested in knowing the nuances and relative rankings of various soaps. Considering that you can get a great shave from Proraso, AOS, TOBS, DRH, T&H, GFT, and many other easily found products in many areas I'm not sure the majority of people that wet shave really care about whether A is slicker than B as long as they can enjoy a shave that beats a can of gel and a cart razor. If I didn't stumble across the boards and get really interested in it I'd still be happy to shave with my Merku 27C LHC, Omega boar brush, Proraso Green and white and Merkur blades.

Dare to dream David, dare to dream.

Yeah you're probably right

SCShaver that would be great, one of my pet peeves is under scented soap. If its promoted as smelling like something it should smell like that, really, it should.

In my initial post here, I asked:

"... the one thing I noticed over and over again, is that frankly NOBODY say anything negative, or much negative, about anything.  It’s rare. Almost every product is highly rated, highly regarded, etc. etc. etc.  That is not real life. If everything you encounter is perfect or near perfect, then chances are you haven’t tried enough products or your bar is set low. I've tried some products that were pretty bad. I've bought small appliances that were bad. I've bought lots of consumer products that fell apart or were junk. If only I had known.   LOTS for stuff I have bought in my life have been junk (sad to say). Soaps/Creams are not different. I've had some actually start to dry on one side of my face while working the other or they literally stunk (to me). Or stuff where there was about little residual glide (and I'm too lazy to relather constantly). I know there were complaints about difficulty in lathering some products but that's a hard water issue (I think).

So what is going on here?"

I was listening to a podcast where there was a discussion about reviewing products received free for review.  

I guess this answers my question. I heard it as If something is lousy, they tell the originator and won't post it if asked not to. IMO, this results in a hidden binary system. I presume this means that if something is OK, you see a review. But if you don't see the review of the things that fail, that doesn't mean it wasn't tested, but could be the originator asked for it not to be published.

I find this fundamentally flawed. Although individuals are not Consumer Reports or independent companies trying to protect consumers, I believe they DO have an obligation to tell the public the bad with the good. At the moment, you are only seeing "the good". If everything is "good" or "passes", that I can't have faith in the recommendation and I guess reject all the reviews.

Of course individuals are free to do as they choose, but at least this answers my question. Poor reviews are rare because of this hidden binary pass/fail approach.

I enjoyed Anthony Esposito's rant the other day about people complaining on shave groups and boards. He said it all works, everything works, just shave and enjoy it. I believe most soaps do work well for most people, especially those with fair skin that can tolerate anything. Sure some products may work better than others, but what is better for one may not be for someone else. If the hair is removed, you have no cuts or irritation, and your skin feels good, then it shouldn't matter to anyone else which products serve thay purpose for someone. And in Esposito's case, he shaves with a straight, and uses everything from RazoRock to AdP with excellent results. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard him complain about the performacne of a soap. My point here is that most soaps do a fine job, so it's not so shocking that most people enjoy theirs shaves from a wide variety of products.

I enjoyed Anthony Esposito's rant the other day about people complaining on shave groups and boards. He said it all works, everything works, just shave and enjoy it.

I believe I said that here   You can shave with about any product on the market sold, provided it lathers. You might not want to or might not enjoy it but you can. I can stand by that. You might not want to but you can.

The issue I got out of the podcast was that one reviewer said most soaps are all about equal and useable. But those that were not they went back to the soapmaker and gave them the option to opt out of an online review.

I find this does not protect the consumer. Then again, individuals are not Consumer Reports or any kind of consumer protection agency. Unfortunately this approach answers my question of why there are few poor reviews. Basically, the are all recommendations of "yeah, you can use it".  That's an endorsement. Its not an evaluation.

I would like to see a review process where the there is standardized approach to testing and products are not given away free. No matter how you look at it, there are vested interests of all parties concerned. You can say you are fair but some say they like the idea of getting stuff free. Sure, Who wouldn't?


Now that I understand this all, I'm good with that answer. If I don't see a review, then it does not meant it wasn't tested. But it could mean it failed the pass/fail test.

I think yours is an example of where an opinion can also be a fact. It is a fact that you had that experience and I couldn't then say, "No, you didn't have that experience," because you did. That will always be true whether I want it to be or not. When you and I have a different experience of the same thing, our two considered opinions differ based on the fact that you had one experience and I had another that was different from yours. Both are equally supported; however, instead of just saying "that's just your opinion," I think you and I would wonder what caused the difference in our experiences.  This is because it is not just our opinion but an actual difference in the experience we've had.  Are you wrong? Of course you are because I'm always right, ha ha. No, you're not wrong and neither am I about our experience of the product.
Now, say everyone else here has an experience that is similar to yours and dissimilar to mine. Wouldn't that indicate to anyone but the most stubborn of people that my experience is atypical and that your conclusion carries more weight than mine? I know I would be led to think I might be making an error or have some condition beyond my control that changes how I experience that soap. It would be ludicrous for me to then say, "I don't care what you say. This soap is bad, and what all of you say about it is just your opinion." That's because it isn't just your opinion.  The only thing I could say about that soap is that I don't prefer to use it because I can't get it to work like all of you can. I cannot say that soap is terrible because it's clearly not since everyone here but me has a good experience.
So, I'll stop here. Thank you to those who read to the end.

I have to address this...Facts are immutable. A fact is the same, regardless of the person experiencing said fact. 20*F is a cold temperature, no matter who goes outside. Whether it is tolerable or intolerable is an opinion, but the temperature is cold, regardless of your tolerance level. 1+1=2, no matter who does the math, nor how they come to the conclusion. Any other answer is not an opinion, it is wrong. This is a fact...provable, immutable, and unchanged by individual experience.

With that said, very little in a soap review can be concluded to be a fact. The brand, scent profile, ingredients, intended purpose, color, consistency...the "facts" of the review end there, for the most part.

Clearly, reviews do not end there, however, from this point forward everything else is an opinion. Latherability, slickness, scent strength, post shave, glide, protection...all opinions. A learned opinion, a beginner's opinion, a scientifically achieved opinion, or a paid opinion is a qualitative label only...they are all opinions.

Do I value the opinions of the highly experienced over the brand new shaver? Absolutely. I would be foolish not to, as the experienced user clearly has a broader basis of comparison, lending more value and credence to their opinion. But to call it a fact is erroneous at best, regardless of the method used to obtain said opinion.

When I go shopping for a new motorcycle, I bring my friend who has been riding on and off road for more years than I have been alive. He has ridden everything from 500cc 2-strokes that will kill mortals for fun to great big old v8 Boss Hoss cruisers. He has a million miles of highway and track experience. His opinion matters to me. But it is still an opinion based solely on his experiences at the controls. The only "facts": are the size, horsepower, frame/chassis dimensions, displacement, etc, etc...

The manner in which one achieves the experience by which they develop their opinion does not make their opinion a fact. Their opinion is still an opinion. Their experience can be used to add or subtract value with the opinion, but it cannot make an opinion into a fact.

I enjoyed Anthony Esposito's rant the other day about people complaining on shave groups and boards. He said it all works, everything works, just shave and enjoy it. I believe most soaps do work well for most people, especially those with fair skin that can tolerate anything. Sure some products may work better than others, but what is better for one may not be for someone else. If the hair is removed, you have no cuts or irritation, and your skin feels good, then it shouldn't matter to anyone else which products serve thay purpose for someone. And in Esposito's case, he shaves with a straight, and uses everything from RazoRock to AdP with excellent results. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard him complain about the performacne of a soap. My point here is that most soaps do a fine job, so it's not so shocking that most people enjoy theirs shaves from a wide variety of products.

Who is this Anthony Esposito and did he ever play goal for the Blackhawks in 1960s-70s? Seriously, he's not a reviewer or a critic, what he is is a promoter - just buy, its all good. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you know what he's about. If, on the other hand, you're looking for an honest opinion good or bad or in between about products upon which you may base a buying decision, you want to know the straight goods from someone who more or less knows what he's talking about. You want to know if he is given free product to "test" in exchange for an honestly always positive opinion. You want to know that the reviewer isn't hating on a particular product like Semogue boar brushes for some obscure reason other than the actual performance of the brushes (which I love by the way).

Most of us will have no opportunity to ever meet or get to know any of these online reviewers and won't be able to gauge their bona fides except by buying the product and seeing if our experience aligns with theirs. In that regard the "promoter" reviewers are successful. If a significant part of the market buys a product just once that can add up to profit for a maker of inferior product that was used just once by a million buyers. I think it all comes down to the old buyer beware - check sources and cross reference information and do some research. Buy samples if you can. I have found some very good sources of information here on DFS - oddly enough some of the most straightforward folks have been the artisans that are active on DFS - obviously they're here for commercial reasons but frequently they're also here as regular wet shavers, albeit sometimes very knowledgeable wet shavers and they will freely share their knowledge on products in general rather than just promote their own.

Hmm I say it when I didn't like a product. Not too impressed with CB at first but after a while of using it and against really mediocre soaps at best, now I see why many likes it.

I like Arko even if many didn't like the scent.

I try my best not to say too much negative cause I don't want to harm the artisan's reputation in anyway (not that I matter, but things said specially on the net can have an effect). Many of them are doing it for their family and I respect that immensely. However I must still be honest in my opinion, this is what our community is about after all.

I was honest when I said I didn't like my PAA soap. 1k smells too much like licorice for my taste. The gentleman was kind enough to speak to us and I really respect that.

I guess what I am saying is, being truthful and honest while being tactful can only benefit our community as a whole. It will push the artisans to improve more, and it will help newbies not fall into the pit of hype.

I enjoyed Anthony Esposito's rant the other day about people complaining on shave groups and boards. He said it all works, everything works, just shave and enjoy it. I believe most soaps do work well for most people, especially those with fair skin that can tolerate anything. Sure some products may work better than others, but what is better for one may not be for someone else. If the hair is removed, you have no cuts or irritation, and your skin feels good, then it shouldn't matter to anyone else which products serve thay purpose for someone. And in Esposito's case, he shaves with a straight, and uses everything from RazoRock to AdP with excellent results. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard him complain about the performacne of a soap. My point here is that most soaps do a fine job, so it's not so shocking that most people enjoy theirs shaves from a wide variety of products.

Who is this Anthony Esposito and did he ever play goal for the Blackhawks in 1960s-70s?  Seriously, he's not a reviewer or a critic, what he is is a promoter - just buy, its all good.  There is nothing wrong with that as long as you know what he's about.  If, on the other hand, you're looking for an honest opinion good or bad or in between about products upon which you may base a buying decision, you want to know the straight goods from someone who more or less knows what he's talking about.  You want to know if he is given free product to "test" in exchange for an honestly always positive opinion.  You want to know that the reviewer isn't hating on a particular product like Semogue boar brushes for some obscure reason other than the actual performance of the brushes (which I love by the way).

Most of us will have no opportunity to ever meet or get to know any of these online reviewers and won't be able to gauge their bona fides except by buying the product and seeing if our experience aligns with theirs.  In that regard the "promoter" reviewers are successful.  If a significant part of the market buys a product just once that can add up to profit for a maker of inferior product that was used just once by a million buyers.  I think it all comes down to the old buyer beware - check sources and cross reference information and do some research.  Buy samples if you can.  I have found some very good sources of information here on DFS - oddly enough some of the most straightforward folks have been the artisans that are active on DFS - obviously they're here for commercial reasons but frequently they're also here as regular wet shavers, albeit sometimes very knowledgeable wet shavers and they will freely share their knowledge on products in general rather than just promote their own.

He's has a Youtube channel where he shaves with a straight nearly every day and simply rotates through various soaps, straights, and badger brushes. He does not review anything, just straight up shaving with a straight razor. I think he started the channel to help people learn how to use a straight, and it seems that is all he's doing now. He makes some comments while lathering sometimes, like I like nice scent, or great suds, but that's about it. If you've ever heard of RazoRock's Station soap, that is a tribute soap for him, and Catie's made one too with a Stallion on it. Anyway, my point was that he is using a straight razor and gets great shaves with $5 soaps and $80 soaps. If anyone else watched the video they would know exactly why I mentioned it. The guy was just fed up of all the drama and haters on the shave groups that love to criticize every product they don't agree is good.

I think Chris hit the nail squarely on the head. Soap reviews are just the opinions of the reviewers. Thats why TSE doesn't do "reviews" anymore, he just does "spotlights." He's making it clear that HE likes this or does not like that about some shaving product. As Chris pointed out, there are few facts about soaps, but there are tons of opinions. Unless there's something seriously wrong with a soap, such as unsaponified lye pockets, then it's just soap. Some will love it, some will hate it. In the end: "You pays your money and you takes your chances."