Unethical?

DOOWIT LOL

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gillette...2856855810

Wow.  OK, I'll grant you that the OP's choice of the word "unethical" may not have been the best word to describe the behaviour he'd witnessed on ebay.  I'll also grant you that BadDad isn't wrong , however, I still say that IMO dude is a scalper and he's a D-bag.  I believe I have the Constitutionally protected right to hold that opinion.  Sure, he's a capitalist and not doing anything illegal (that we're aware of) but I still don't think I'd be interested in sitting down with him over a couple of beers to watch some basketball.  There are lots of behaviours that fall short of breaking laws that are still generally frowned upon.

I don't really like to say "it is generally frowned on" unless it really and truly is, generally speaking, frowned on, and as I pointed out earlier, there is no other hobby in which you find so many people expecting something for nothing to the point where many are willing to be accusatory towards an entity that is doing nothing more than acting upon a hot market with speed and good business sense.

Even within the hobby of wet shaving itself, it is not "generally frowned upon". It is discouraged in some forums, not out of some benevolence, rather out of a sense of security for the profits those forums generate. Because of this, there are individuals that think it is, or at least should be, an unwritten rule out of some sense of community or something.

It happens all over ebay, facebook, reddit, etsy, craigslist, and instagram. It happens because it is how markets operate and how businesses profit.

I get it. I genuinely like a lot of the members here, and I would be very angry to see them taken advantage of, and I include you in that statement, Marko. There are many participants on this forum that I would happily give something to if I thought it would help. I agree with the sentiment that this hobby should be full of "gentlemen" that value friendship over profit and character over income. I live that agreement in the way I conduct myself here and the people I choose to interact with and in what ways. That interaction is what generates a sense of community, and in these pseudo-family circles, I'm pretty sure there is far more good natured donations and PIFs than over-priced snake oil salesmen. But that is by choice, not force, and that is why it is special, and something to be protected.

You, I, and anyone else is welcome to have any opinion of the behavior we want. Accusations of unethical behavior are what bothers me. It is not unethical. It is a perfectly legitimate, and very intelligent, business move. Dude is making 400% profit, and he will get it, because someone will buy it.

I'll weigh on this (as if we needed another opinion).  While technically I must agree with those that it's a free market and someone who buys an item can sell it for whatever someone else is willing to pay, I believe there's a question of spirit.  For those of us who've interacted with Ken, it's clear that he is not in business to make money.  This is a passion project for him.  This flipper issue was discussed, I think on other forums and Ken said he didn't like people arbitraging his brushes.   I think this is not just because Ken is a stand up guy.  I think it's because Ken knows that he produces less product than is currently demanded, and he is sensitive to the fact that many who would use and cherish his brushes have been frustrated with their inability to get one.  Add that some people are buying to simply flip and profit from it just exacerbates the problem.  So again while technically it's a free market, the context is what makes it less than gentlemanly IMHO.

I mean this with respect to the maker and to you, so please don't read into this post. It is not meant to be antagonistic or insulting, but...

It doesn't matter if "Ken"(I presume he makes Paladin brushes) likes it or not. If it bothers him enough, he can cease producing brushes and make them only specifically for people within his close circle of friends. That's the only choice he has, other than stepping up production or reducing quality to lower market value. My guess is that is even more distasteful than seeing his brushes command skyrocketed prices.

He is a businessman. If he was only doing it out of passion for the hobby, he wouldn't be investing money in websites, business licenses, and all of the tax hoopla associated with a business versus a hobby.

The context is that he is running a business, and he won;t do anything to stop it because the only things he could do would kill his own profits. He has no choice but to change his business model, or deal with the fact that his product commands a ton of resale value in the current market. He can either end it, capture it, or deal with it.

I don't disagree with you in that it can be frustrating and if it is a product you happen to want, it probably really sucks. I'm just saying...that doesn't make it "unethical".

Hi Chris, just responding.  To be fair, I think In the beginning of my post I was agreeing with your position.  In general I believe in free markets and I don't think there is anything unethical about engaging in free trade.  For the record, I never used that word.  I did say that given the context I can understand how some would view the activity as less than gentlemanly, which is a spirit that many on these forums aspire to promote.  My post was meant to communicate that I see both sides of the issue. If it did not do that effectively, then that's on me.

Cheers, Alex

I'll weigh on this (as if we needed another opinion).  While technically I must agree with those that it's a free market and someone who buys an item can sell it for whatever someone else is willing to pay, I believe there's a question of spirit.  For those of us who've interacted with Ken, it's clear that he is not in business to make money.  This is a passion project for him.  This flipper issue was discussed, I think on other forums and Ken said he didn't like people arbitraging his brushes.   I think this is not just because Ken is a stand up guy.  I think it's because Ken knows that he produces less product than is currently demanded, and he is sensitive to the fact that many who would use and cherish his brushes have been frustrated with their inability to get one.  Add that some people are buying to simply flip and profit from it just exacerbates the problem.  So again while technically it's a free market, the context is what makes it less than gentlemanly IMHO.

Ken has to also realize though that he's contributing to the huge asking prices by supplying less brushes than there is demand.  if he can't satisfy those higher demands by increasing supply, then this will continue to happen.  I'm not saying it's right or he should be obligated to produce more - or any brushes - but that's just reality.

You are 100% right on this. Ken's other alternative would be to increase prices, which I don't think he wants to do.

Hi Chris, just responding.  To be fair, I think In the beginning of my post I was agreeing with your position.  In general I believe in free markets and I don't think there is anything unethical about engaging in free trade.  For the record, I never used that word.  I did say that given the context I can understand how some would view the activity as less than gentlemanly, which is a spirit that many on these forums aspire to promote.  My post was meant to communicate that I see both sides of the issue.  If it did not do that effectively, then that's on me.

Cheers, Alex

I got that. I just didn't want you think I was trying to be argumentative or disrespectful by basically saying it doesn't matter how the maker feels. It's really tough to convey a sympathetic tone with those words in writing. Thus the preface to the remark.

I think we are pretty much in agreement, at least on main points...

He can also deny direct sale to scalpers, which I believe he intends to do.


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Really? You think this is possible?

If someone is really committed to making a business off him, I'm sure they can try to get around it. But, I would guess he'd eventually identify the person even if it is difficult to stop some of the tactics you mentioned.

I think it is important to distinguish between a hobbyist selling a shaving product that didn't work out for them at a market price vs. someone buying a product with the intent to resell at an above market price. Personally, I wouldn't feel right trying to make money off of Ken's hard work.


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If someone is really committed to making a business off him, I'm sure they can try to get around it. But, I would guess he'd eventually identify the person even if it is difficult to stop some of the tactics you mentioned.

I think it is important to distinguish between a hobbyist selling a shaving product that didn't work out for them at a market price vs. someone buying a product with the intent to resell at an above market price. Personally, I wouldn't feel right trying to make money off of Ken's hard work.


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As long as his brushes are for sale and will resell at 300-400% markup, he won't be able to stop people from getting them and reselling them.

I realize there is a difference between a guy "rehoming" a brush, and a reseller purchasing one with the intention of selling it at a profit. One is a hobbyist, the other is a business, which, realistically, makes criticizing them for making a profit that much more unnecessary and off-base...

A business doesn't have to purchase wholesale if there is enough margin, and clearly the market has determined that there is enough margin...

In a mostly free market economy the easiest way to lower prices is to meet demand. ANY other method is folly. The energy level required to weed out "scalpers" Is energy lost on manufacturing. Yes, some of the masses will be appeased by the effort, but it will not resolve the problem.

Put a wolfman or Paladin in every wanting hand, and the price WILL go down.

Over night, the price of the Babysmooths went from $120 to $40, when Jo spun up production again. Playing out in black and white as we speak.

totally agree with you here and it's a perfect, live example of how to weed out the secondary market.

I'll weigh on this (as if we needed another opinion).  While technically I must agree with those that it's a free market and someone who buys an item can sell it for whatever someone else is willing to pay, I believe there's a question of spirit.  For those of us who've interacted with Ken, it's clear that he is not in business to make money.  This is a passion project for him.  This flipper issue was discussed, I think on other forums and Ken said he didn't like people arbitraging his brushes.   I think this is not just because Ken is a stand up guy.  I think it's because Ken knows that he produces less product than is currently demanded, and he is sensitive to the fact that many who would use and cherish his brushes have been frustrated with their inability to get one.  Add that some people are buying to simply flip and profit from it just exacerbates the problem.  So again while technically it's a free market, the context is what makes it less than gentlemanly IMHO.

Ken has to also realize though that he's contributing to the huge asking prices by supplying less brushes than there is demand.  if he can't satisfy those higher demands by increasing supply, then this will continue to happen.  I'm not saying it's right or he should be obligated to produce more - or any brushes - but that's just reality.

You are 100% right on this.  Ken's other alternative would be to increase prices, which I don't think he wants to do.

as long as neither of the two options are explored (producing more brushes OR raising the prices), there will continue to be a secondary market for Ken's brushes.  

I guess we'll see how it shakes out in the long run!

Curious, how my taking issue over bad business practises by a major name was also called 'beating a dead horse' by another retailer and forum owner yet countless other subjects available in archives are embraced daily with enthusiasm. I made issue over two scalpers. I contacted EBAY and explained how their behavior damaged other parties. I made it up
to a rather exasperated senior company officer. My account was suspended. I finally made contact with Ken @ Paladin, James @ WOLFMAN, Brad Sears and the folks at UFO.
THEY were all concerned. I suppplied actual names and address beyond email accounts. James shared he was considering RAISING HIS PRICES if people were willing to buy at such inflated prices. Brad was funny, said he would quote these two $2500 a brush. Ken has announced he will decline sales to parties with patterns of multiple buys and resales. UFO didn't know how to respond. I told them simply to take their money, and then refund with apologies for overselling the item by accident. That door has been largely closed and it is only the unwary private seller ignorant of the controversy.
I was banned because a moderator, collector and fellow countryman of said forum pushed my buttons at a very vulnerable time. I pushed back. There are shaving entities, like car makers and banks 'to big to fail' or be held accountable. The above mentioned folks are honorable people and deserve a little reciprocity.
As for capitalsim? If I may Quote economics professor R.D.Wolff " If your roommate behaved like capitalism you would move."

Curious, how my taking issue over bad business practises by a major name was also called 'beating a dead horse' by another retailer and forum owner yet countless other subjects available in archives are embraced daily with enthusiasm ie top ten blades,soaps, AS and why are there four wax dots? I made issue over two scalpers. I contacted EBAY and explained how their behavior damaged other parties. I made it up
to a rather exasperated senior company officer. My account was suspended. I finally made contact with Ken @ Paladin, James @ WOLFMAN, Brad Sears and the folks at UFO.
THEY were all concerned. I suppplied actual names and address beyond email accounts. James shared he was considering RAISING HIS PRICES if people were willing to buy at such inflated prices. Brad was funny, said he would quote these two $2500 a brush. Ken has announced he will decline sales to parties with patterns of multiple buys and resales. UFO didn't know how to respond. I told them simply to take their money, and then refund with apologies for overselling the item by accident. That door has been largely closed and it is only the unwary private seller ignorant of the controversy.
I was banned because a moderator, collector and fellow countryman of said manufacturer on that forum pushed my buttons at a very vulnerable time. I pushed back. There are shaving entities, like car makers and banks 'to big to fail' or be held accountable. The above mentioned folks are honorable people and deserve a little reciprocity.
As for capitalsim? If I may quote economics professor R.D.Wolff " If your roommate behaved like capitalism you would move."

What am I missing here ? Is it the cost he charges ?
Seems the big brush makers are as guilty of that as anyone. I mean 300 for a Simpson ?