#1
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2016, 05:42 AM by GloryUprising. Edit Reason: Phone Grammer )
So seriously guys this place is awsome purely since it's a site impartial. Not run by connections to retail, manufacturing, sponsors, ect.

I noticed that a certain manufacturer was now offering a scent that was once offered as a 'special edition' on another forum owned by a vendor.

Previously, this vendor posted far and wide (on other sites too mind you) announcing this product's release and how he and another site collaborated on getting this scent produced. This vendor had also started a dedicated thread on the forum that the vendor 'runs' and this thread had some very good information on said product.

This vendor no longer carries this manufacturer's products at all. In fact this vendor doesn't even list the product on the website either and thus all the previous reviews on the product is gone...

At any rate, I post on the vendors own thread on his forum (a thread that he himself created at first to 'announce' the product's avaliablity, the one with the good discussion) to inquire if anyone has tried the current production verson just to have that ENTIRE thread deleted. All that great information just gone. Just.like.that.

For what reason, my guess is as good as yours.

I thought the idea of forums was to share thoughts and ideas. And for boards revolving around a niche hobby a forum is critical for maintaining active discussion about our passion. But increasingly I find that certain boards (I use the plural since I noticed a few forums have been doing this) have a financial connection to said discussion and when the ownership of these boards find that the discussion is no longer in their interest (fianacial or otherwise) speech gets silenced in the most fascist way: by removeing it like it never existed.

I understand that an online forum is not protected by free speech and in the end of a the day it is not truly a public forum in the purest sense. And I understand that that the ownership has the right to moderate the discussion. But come on, deleting all that great information in the entire thread? Perhaps a more even response would have been to lock the thread or just delete my singular post.

It seems disingenuous to say that a forum was created to discuss shaving and then turn around and remove information about shaving. It would seem to be more honest to say that this is a forum about shaving products that is solid by xyz.

/rant.

Thanks, DFS, for being impartial.

Forged, TheHandleBar, SharpSpine and 10 others like this post
-Spencer
#2

Super Moderator
Las Vegas, NV, USA
Spencer, like you, I’m grateful as well for Damn Fine Shave being what it is — a no-nonsense forum where anyone can discuss all aspects of shaving without having to feel like they might be walking on egg shells.

Before I joined DFS, I noticed on another forum that it seemed like almost every other member was banned. (Slightly exaggerating, but not a lot.) Somehow, some of their posts were (thankfully) left up in the threads, but upon seeing that pattern over and over again on said forum, my thought was: Well, I better not join and invest any time in this place, because there seems to be something seriously wrong here.

On another thread recently, grim shared a link to a podcast that mentioned some of these same matters:
http://damnfineshave.com/thread-a-seriou...0#pid65930
The topic begins about one hour into the podcast.

Thank goodness for DFS.

TheHandleBar, iamsms, wyze0ne and 5 others like this post
Whenever I go to shave, I assume there’s someone else on the planet shaving, so I say “I’m gonna go shave, too.”
– Mitch Hedberg
#3
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2016, 07:00 PM by grim.)
(06-13-2016, 05:39 AM)GloryUprising Wrote: I understand that an online forum is not protected by free speech

Interestingly enough, you might find that many people don't understand the first amendment.

(06-13-2016, 05:39 AM)GloryUprising Wrote: I thought the idea of forums was to share thoughts and ideas.

Sorry to disagree with you but, except for a very few that have owners with altruistic reasons, forums exist to make money.  The subject is not relevant. Sometimes, when a forum reaches a certain active membership level it attracts the attention of corporations and is bought out from individuals. Some companies own a hundred + forums. The subject of the forum doesn’t matter whether it be firewood, roller skating, or shaving. That’s just the means to make money for the company.

Rick DeWeese explained the funding model well. Listen to his podcast #53 starting around 1:00:00. However, unless someone is wealthy enough to do things for free, somebody has to pay for things. It’s not free. Nothing is free. So I can understand the financial model.

Unfortunately, shaving forums for some reason, and I suspect it’s the niche thing with small numbers, seem to go overboard in “rules”.  It’s one thing to say you cannot advertise without being a paying vendor. That makes sense.  It’s another to create a closed society and can't reference anything outside of the closed virtual world.

We're lucky here Smile The rules are a simple as can be and good ones. But no, forums usually do not exist to share ideas. That is just a byproduct of the real goal of many - profit. I'm sure that sounds cynical but think about it.
#4

Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
(06-13-2016, 05:39 AM)GloryUprising Wrote: So seriously guys this place is awsome purely since it's a site impartial. Not run by connections to retail, manufacturing, sponsors, ect.

I noticed that a certain manufacturer was now offering a scent that was once offered as a 'special edition' on another forum owned by a vendor.

Previously, this vendor posted far and wide (on other sites too mind you) announcing this product's release and how he and another site collaborated on getting this scent produced. This vendor had also started a dedicated thread on the forum that the vendor 'runs' and this thread had some very good information on said product.  

This vendor no longer carries this manufacturer's products at all.  In fact this vendor doesn't even list the product on the website either and thus all the previous reviews on the product is gone...

At any rate,  I post on the vendors own thread on his forum (a thread that he himself created at first to 'announce' the product's avaliablity, the one with the good discussion) to inquire if anyone has tried the current production verson just to have that ENTIRE thread deleted. All that great information just gone. Just.like.that.

For what reason, my guess is as good as yours.

I thought the idea of forums was to share thoughts and ideas. And for boards revolving around a niche hobby a forum is critical for maintaining active discussion about our passion. But increasingly I find that certain boards (I use the plural since I noticed a few forums have been doing this) have a financial connection to said discussion and when the ownership of these boards find that the discussion is no longer in their interest (fianacial or otherwise) speech gets silenced in the most fascist way: by removeing it like it never existed.

I understand that an online forum is not protected by free speech and in the end of a the day it is not truly a public forum in the purest sense. And I understand that that the ownership has the right to moderate the discussion.  But come on, deleting all that great information  in the entire thread? Perhaps a more even response would have been to lock the thread or just delete my singular post.

It seems disingenuous to say that a forum was created to discuss shaving and then turn around and remove information about shaving. It would seem to be more honest to say that this is a forum about shaving products that is solid by xyz.

/rant.

Thanks, DFS, for being impartial.

as someone who used to do the server & website administration for 3 years on another large shaving forum, the conflicts of interest started to get so bad that I finally had enough of it and had to quit.

We're glad you're enjoying the forum!

(06-13-2016, 12:11 PM)Matsilainen Wrote: Spencer, like you, I’m grateful as well for Damn Fine Shave being what it is — a no-nonsense forum where anyone can discuss all aspects of shaving without having to feel like they might be walking on egg shells.

Before I joined DFS, I noticed on another forum that it seemed like almost every other member was banned. (Slightly exaggerating, but not a lot.) Somehow, some of their posts were (thankfully) left up in the threads, but upon seeing that pattern over and over again on said forum, my thought was: Well, I better not join and invest any time in this place, because there seems to be something seriously wrong here.

On another thread recently, grim shared a link to a podcast that mentioned some of these same matters:
http://damnfineshave.com/thread-a-seriou...0#pid65930
The topic begins about one hour into the podcast.

Thank goodness for DFS.

Thanks for giving us a chance!

(06-13-2016, 06:52 PM)grim Wrote:
(06-13-2016, 05:39 AM)GloryUprising Wrote: I understand that an online forum is not protected by free speech

Interestingly enough, you might find that many people don't understand the first amendment.

(06-13-2016, 05:39 AM)GloryUprising Wrote: I thought the idea of forums was to share thoughts and ideas.

Sorry to disagree with you but, except for a very few that have owners with altruistic reasons, forums exist to make money.  The subject is not relevant. Sometimes, when a forum reaches a certain active membership level it attracts the attention of corporations and is bought out from individuals. Some companies own a hundred + forums. The subject of the forum doesn’t matter whether it be firewood, roller skating, or shaving. That’s just the means to make money for the company.

Rick DeWeese explained the funding model well. Listen to his podcast #53 starting around 1:00:00. However, unless someone is wealthy enough to do things for free, somebody has to pay for things. It’s not free. Nothing is free. So I can understand the financial model.

Unfortunately, shaving forums for some reason, and I suspect it’s the niche thing with small numbers, seem to go overboard in “rules”.  It’s one thing to say you cannot advertise without being a paying vendor. That makes sense.  It’s another to create a closed society and can't reference anything outside of the closed virtual world.

We're lucky here Smile The rules are a simple as can be and good ones. But no, forums usually do not exist to share ideas. That is just a byproduct of the real goal of many - profit.  I'm sure that sounds cynical but think about it.

I don't know if I'd call it 'altruistic reasons', but there are forums out there that exist to keep communications centralized without making a single dollar. for example, about 10 years ago, I was HEAVILY involved in PC gaming...I'm talking like 60-80 hours/week. I used to run a gaming clan with people in it from around the world. because of our daily life commitments and general time zone differences, the only way to properly communicate things was via a website & forum. the site was costing me money to run it, but it needed to be done.

anyway, now that that's out of the way...

the purpose of this site was to move away from the other forum models that exist because most of them are essentially used as the marketing arms by the owners of the various shaving stores out there. being that I don't own a shaving store, I don't have any inherent reasons to stifle discussions about products in the market.

I will say this though: the reason we run ads from merchants is to help cover site operation costs. as the site continues to grow, the costs involved will keep going up as well.

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Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
#5

Super Moderator
Las Vegas, NV, USA
(06-13-2016, 09:18 PM)andrewjs18 Wrote: the purpose of this site was to move away from the other forum models that exist because most of them are essentially used as the marketing arms by the owners of the various shaving stores out there.  being that I don't own a shaving store, I don't have any inherent reasons to stifle discussions about products in the market.

I will say this though: the reason we run ads from merchants is to help cover site operation costs.  as the site continues to grow, the costs involved will keep going up as well.

Andrew, I don’t know how you do it all, but I would think I speak for every member here when I say that we really do appreciate it! Thank you for building a welcoming place with such a good atmosphere.

NeoXerxes, Marko and TheHandleBar like this post
Whenever I go to shave, I assume there’s someone else on the planet shaving, so I say “I’m gonna go shave, too.”
– Mitch Hedberg
#6

Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2016, 11:36 PM by andrewjs18.)
(06-13-2016, 11:22 PM)Matsilainen Wrote:
(06-13-2016, 09:18 PM)andrewjs18 Wrote: the purpose of this site was to move away from the other forum models that exist because most of them are essentially used as the marketing arms by the owners of the various shaving stores out there.  being that I don't own a shaving store, I don't have any inherent reasons to stifle discussions about products in the market.

I will say this though: the reason we run ads from merchants is to help cover site operation costs.  as the site continues to grow, the costs involved will keep going up as well.

Andrew, I don’t know how you do it all, but I would think I speak for every member here when I say that we really do appreciate it! Thank you for building a welcoming place with such a good atmosphere.
Once the general infrastructure is laid out, the forum tends to mostly run itself. Aside from tweaking settings, keeping software updated, doing some moderating and trying to improve the product (the forum in this case), it's mostly small stuff here and there.

We did spend several months testing, laying out the structure, building out the site theme, figuring out what functionality we did and didn't want/need, creating a logo and getting feedback from a small group of users before we were comfortable opening the site to the public.

A few things we're working on for the near future:

1- redoing the merchants section layout so it has better usability with our growing number of merchants on the site

2- force all site traffic over a secure HTTPS connection. There's some technical challenges in getting this fully implemented but we're working on it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
#7
(06-13-2016, 09:18 PM)andrewjs18 Wrote: I don't know if I'd call it 'altruistic reasons', but there are forums out there that exist to keep communications centralized without making a single dollar. ... the reason we run ads from merchants is to help cover site operation costs.  as the site continues to grow, the costs inv, unselolved will keep going up as well.

Sure, its altruistic, for the benefit of others, unselfish for the benefit of others. That's cool Smile And there is a cost and you are defraying the cost by advertisements, also cool. Smile Kudos to you! But there are also companies that buy high value forums for profit.
#8

Administrator
Philadelphia, PA
(06-13-2016, 11:39 PM)grim Wrote:
(06-13-2016, 09:18 PM)andrewjs18 Wrote: I don't know if I'd call it 'altruistic reasons', but there are forums out there that exist to keep communications centralized without making a single dollar. ... the reason we run ads from merchants is to help cover site operation costs.  as the site continues to grow, the costs inv, unselolved will keep going up as well.

Sure, its altruistic, for the benefit of others, unselfish for the benefit of others. That's cool Smile And there is a cost and you are defraying the cost by advertisements, also cool. Smile Kudos to you! But there are also companies that buy high value forums for profit.
Sure, there's plenty of those sites out there. It's no different than a new artisan or vendor entering the market, imho.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Matsilainen likes this post
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
#9

Super Moderator
Las Vegas, NV, USA
(06-13-2016, 11:35 PM)andrewjs18 Wrote: A few things we're working on for the near future:

1- redoing the merchants section layout so it has better usability with our growing number of merchants on the site

2- force all site traffic over a secure HTTPS connection.  There's some technical challenges in getting this fully implemented but we're working on it.

These both sound like great improvements. Good luck with finalizing the implementation!

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Whenever I go to shave, I assume there’s someone else on the planet shaving, so I say “I’m gonna go shave, too.”
– Mitch Hedberg
#10
Thanks much andrewjs18, and well said GloryUprising!


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