How Much Higher Can The Bar Go?

Sorry, your long answer, while good examples, I never disagreed with customer service  I disagree with the concept of moving from small scale operations to large scale operations means the end product suffers.

Not always, but in most cases it does because the large corporation is always motivated by money. How can we cut corners to make production cheaper while still maintaining the same retail price? How can we substitute inexpensive chemicals in place of more natural ingredients?You see it time and time again whether its personal grooming items, cars or whatever. Its almost guaranteed to happen eventually. In the end, the main concern is the bottom line, not the consumer.

the last sentence is debatable, but I'd rather not go down that road on a shaving forum. and I'm tired today.

The most complex, most sophisticated, most sensitive to process variation, contamination , one of the most reliable 'thing' that human being make today is something we all rely on: computer chips. They are mass-produced to perfection - perfection beyond the imagination of 99% of human alive today. And the most sophisticated of those are built not in US, not even in Europe.

I once laughed when someone said machined razors made by artisans will always be superior in finish compared to mass produced razors because of micron level perfections. Micro/nano machines are mass produced today that guarantees nano-meter level accuracy - otherwise your computer won't work.

it is not that producing shaving 'things' in massive manufacturing plants without giving up quality is impossible, the concern is whether ensuring that level of quality is worth the money.

I don't disagree that customer service is better but the advantage of large scale production are substantial. just a few pertaining solely to Quality

1. They can hire QC people whose sole job is QC vice a jack of all trades sole owner. In fact, all components of production can be specialists rather than Jack of all Trades where one persons does the whole show. Who do you want working on your car? The guy down in the gas station who works on all parts of a car or a specialist just working on transmissions? Specialization matters.

2. Machines and tech, especially computerized can not only be state of the art but continually advanced state of the art leaving the sole owner far behind.

3. Research divisions can be huge and best in class scientists doing the research. This should be obvious. And the OP's initial discussion was continuous improvement of product., Sure would be nice to have an entire division doing nothing but research with state of the art equipment rather than person experimenting in their basement.

4. Economies of scale in buying raw materials. A large company can buy more cheaply the raw products than Mom and Pop, buying in quantity chemicals Mom and Pop can't afford.

But hey, we all can go back to building cars by hand. Thats cool. And sure the bottom line is profit. For ALL businesses the bottom line is profit. No profit? Sooner or later they will disappear.  I know their is this fascination with "artisan this or that" from Pizza to Bread to shaving soap. And thats fine. It doesn't mean they make the best product nor the cheapest. And in the end, it always come down to money. What the consumer can afford and is willing to pay. And that is why economies of scale eventually come into the equation.

Wow...we went from getting artisan soaps on the shelf at WalMart to hiring an entire laboratory of specialized R&D scientists to develop the next new recipe in creating soap...

We aren't talking about internal combustion engines, or new-power technologies. We aren't talking about medical technologies or the latest vaccinations and anti-viral medications. We aren;t talking about getting people to colonize Mars.

We are talking about getting soap and aftershave products to a mass market.

Seriously, how much more R&D can go into shaving soap? Do you really, honestly think there is some as-of-yet undiscovered ingredient that will render current formulations obsolete? I don't. Soap has been being made in the same way for over 100 years, with only minor changes to the process and formulations. Sure, recipes can forever and always be tweaked and adjusted, but the chemical reactions needed to make soap have not and will not change in the very near future...

Do think any company that is putting soap on the shelf at WalMart for $1/oz is investing billions in manufacturing processes, calibrations, QC divisions, and testing standards? I don't. Not unless this company is P&G, making trillions of bars of soap annually. There isn't any profit in it.

More realistically, what would happen is a rapid decline in the quality of the product as an artisan hires every kid in the neighborhood to start pouring oils in beakers and hot soaps into plastic containers to cure....

But we can debate the reality of that until the cows come home. There is a reason it is not happening. There is a reason that the shave soaps available at WalMart cannot come CLOSE to comparing with the top-level artisans we have making soaps today. Magic or not, the reasoning is very valid, and the proof is in the daily reality...If it was possible, someone would be doing it already, and they aren;t...

Hypothetically, if people, mass people start thinking that good quality shaving soap/cream is needed, who knows, we may start seeing big R&D, QC and all that comes with those. People were led to believe that they are all too busy to spend 10 minutes for shaving. Yet they can wait on line to get a pumpkin flavored abomination called latte.

Read the responses from the artisans on this forum, and you will understand what the attraction is to the artisan makers.

Marko wrote: It would be a nightmare, they'd have to farm it out to some major soap factory and I imagine all sorts of aspects of the final product would suffer.

I believe that to be nonsense and clearly said I didn't understand the fascination and mystique around "artisans". I was speaking in terms of the technical attributes of the final product just as Marko was talking about the technical attributes of the "final products". Although I understand your passions, a good thing, and long examples were good examples, they all fall under the one sentence you left out, which I articulated ...

There is no magic here, in the technical products. In the customer service, sure

There is no magic here IN THE TECHNICAL PRODUCTS - referencing @Marco's Concerns about the migrations from mom and pop "artisans" to factory production  and ...

In the customer service, sure - referencing that was a given. No large company is going to give you as good as service as small owners. Although some do. For example LL Bean, to this day, will let you return anything ever bought, any time, no questions asked.

Sorry, your long answer, while good examples, I never disagreed with customer service  I disagree with the concept of moving from small scale operations to large scale operations means the end product suffers.

I think there is (or can be) magic in both the technical aspects and the customer service aspect - if you seriously believe that all shaving soaps are technically on par, well, with all due respect, I would disagree with you. I also take issue with your view that capitalism demands that all things eventually get farmed out to big factories to achieve economies of scale an maximize profits. Sometimes that makes sense. Sometimes it just exports all of a nations jobs to low wage foreign countries. Is that always a good thing? I don't know.

Also, your comment about private and public companies having a fiduciary obligation to maximize profits is only half right - public companies do owe a duty to their shareholders although these days you'd be hard pressed to find evidence of that. In the case of a private company, a mom and pop operation, they are free to do as they please. They can operate at a loss if it suits them and they have the cash reserves to manage it, they can give all their profits to charity if they like. They can operate the way Bufflehead does and there is nobody who can tell them otherwise. It can be sweet to be your own boss

BadDad I'd like to meet you in person one day because I just get the feeling that you're good people.

I don't disagree that customer service is better but the advantage of large scale production are substantial. just a few pertaining solely to Quality

1. They can hire QC people whose sole job is QC vice a jack of all trades sole owner. In fact, all components of production can be specialists rather than Jack of all Trades where one persons does the whole show.  Who do you want working on your car? The guy down in the gas station who works on all parts of a car or a specialist just working on transmissions? Specialization matters.

2. Machines and tech, especially computerized can not only be state of the art but continually advanced state of the art leaving the sole owner far behind.

3. Research divisions can be huge and best in class scientists doing the research. This should be obvious. And the OP's initial discussion was continuous improvement of product., Sure would be nice to have an entire division doing nothing but research with state of the art equipment rather than person experimenting in their basement.

4. Economies of scale in buying raw materials. A large company can buy more cheaply the raw products than Mom and Pop, buying in quantity chemicals Mom and Pop can't afford.

But hey, we all can go back to building cars by hand. Thats cool. And sure the bottom line is profit. For ALL businesses the bottom line is profit. No profit? Sooner or later they will disappear.  I know their is this fascination with "artisan this or that" from Pizza to Bread to shaving soap. And thats fine. It doesn't mean they make the best product nor the cheapest. And in the end, it always come down to money. What the consumer can afford and is willing to pay. And that is why economies of scale eventually come into the equation.

The model you describe above already exists in the shaving world - its called Gillette.

I think there is (or can be) magic in both the technical aspects and the customer service aspect - if you seriously believe that all shaving soaps are technically on par, well, with all due respect, I would disagree with you.

never said that and I have a long thread, which I assume a lot of people disagree with, explaining my hierarchy. There is a huge gap between the elite stuff and junk in my mind.
 

I also take issue with your view that capitalism demands that all things eventually get farmed out to big factories to achieve economies of scale an maximize profits.  Sometimes that makes sense.  Sometimes it just exports all of a nations jobs to low wage foreign countries.  Is that always a good thing?  I don't know.

never said that either nor will discuss the political aspects of that. What makes business sense (i.e., profits) might not be good for others reasons.

Also, your comment about private and public companies having a fiduciary obligation to maximize profits is only half right - public companies do owe a duty to their shareholders although these days you'd be hard pressed to find evidence of that.  In the case of a private company, a mom and pop operation, they are free to do as they please.  

Which is to make money. Otherwise ... bye bye and lots of small companies go under every day.

The model you describe above already exists in the shaving world - its called Gillette.

And they make $$$$, tons of it. And whether or not any one in this hobby hates them or P&G is not relevant. P&G exists to make money. Period.

Read http://sharpologist.com/2016/10/intervie...ondon.html

"you pay for what you get and we’re committed to producing world-class products.  ... Doing this allows us to produce and distribute the freshest and most consistent product possible.  One of the greatest benefits of working with an established manufacture is access to their chemists and product development expertise.  There’s a treasure-trove of centuries of product formulations, ingredient knowledge/chemistry, fragrance trends as well as fragrance house relationships and the like.  You just can’t go out and secure this information on your own even on the internet. "  

This is SJOL. So think about that. Would you rather Joe Smoe in his basement, or crowd source for experience, long standing, experts? There is no contest here. If you want the best, you hire the best. Now perhaps, new people will become the best but its not accident that what "most", not all buy most people consider to be top tier products come from long established line. Of course, new lines come up, without progress everyone would die.

If anyone think doing research and top scientists to produce any product isn't important for long term success, they might want to look closer at the companies that have existed for 50 or 100 years and ask why.  Just saying.

You pay for what you get ... That very old saying "usually" has a lot of truth in it. Not always, but usually.