Anything that can go wrong will happen while I'm shaving...

I wanted to discuss something that has come up a few times now... The definition of a soap versus a croap.

Today I accidentally called Mo's new cream a soap, that was my bad. This has brought back memories. So, I figured let's start a mini-discussion:

At some point in the past I called a croap a soap. I was corrected by the vendor, on the ground that "if you can press your finger into it, it's a croap". While I see where he was coming from, I think that definition is a bit too rigid.

Technically, I can force my finger into a quadmill puck of razor rock WTP soap. I have tried and made a sizable dent... Thus, if you follow this rigid definition, it's a croap, too. I'm just not buying that.

I think it has to be fairly soft ... Easily pressed, and maybe... Not always, you come away with some in your finger? I don't know. Perhaps if it can dent with a tap?  It's a hard definition to pin down (to me)... A grey area. Anyone else have some insight or just an opinion?

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Nice topic Paul.

To me the key issue is "Why should we care?"  Back in the day, how firm a soap was may have been more important to most shavers than it is today.  Probably the hardest soaps lasted longer.  In a household that didn't spend one penny more than necessary on shaving - and perhaps only owned one soap at a time - harder soaps may have stood out as better values than croaps, and croaps as better values than better than creams, other things being equal.  Harder soaps probably  absorbed less water, and may have been less likely to grow mold etc. over time.  There is still a common view that soaps, in general, have longer shelf lives than creams, in general.  (I have no idea if this is supported by current science.)

These days what I really care about are things like

• How easy is it to load?
  
• How protective is it?
  
• How do I feel about the scent?
  
• How skin nourishing is it?
  
• How resistant to hard water degradation?
  
• How conveniently does it travel?
  

No doubt there are other considerations.  These days, the "How easy is it to load" nudges me slightly away from the hardest soaps.  Beyond that, I don't care.  For example, the only shelf life I care about is my own, as I would probably have to outlive Methuselah to use the soaps I have.

Some interesting thoughts Mike.

I can only speak to my experience, In regards to 'why do we care'. It is mostly because I've been called out for mislabeling a croap and it stuck in my mind. When I was reminded of it today, I figured it would be fun to discuss. In the end, you are right, it doesn't really matter... It's just fun.

You bring up creams, and that's a more polarizing difference to distinguish. Anyone who's a tub latherer will likely have a strong opinion against creams. I'd imagine creams likely don't last as long - ounce per ounce? Also, you could be right that they might be more volatile and go bad quicker? However, they are easier to load, and I believe easier for a soaper  to scent (do I have that right, Frank  Dragonsbeard ?). So, I guess there's always a trade-off.

Now that the discussion has made it all the way down to creams, this makes me think of those oils and butters. Is there any effect on the 'dehydration' of the butters and oils to make a triple or quad milled soap? Just a thought.

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I hope I did not sound critical of you in any way Paul.  Also, let me be clear that I myself have no idea regarding the shelf life of any particular modern cream or soap.  Actually, it is not an important issue to me personally.  OTOH and FWIW I do think the best of modern soaps tend to outperform the best modern creams I have used, but the best modern creams are still pretty darn good - more than good enough.  And that aside, I, too, have heard explanations - none better than Frank aka Dragonsbeard's - about why adding scent is generally more difficult and expensive with harder (hotter) soaps.

Also, I read the "soap/cream" conversation you referred to, and I think the artisan wanted to point out that his upcoming product may not fit well in any traditional product category.  No specifics were given or promises made, which is understandable at this stage.  Nevertheless, he seemed to me to suggest that the upcoming product - a sort of skincare shaving cream - may have important properties of other product categories.  He mentioned preshaves and shave oils and referenced some of his products.  I think it is fair for the artisan to highlight these things, because they are likely to be important to customers.  Even so - and with all due respect to the artisan, who is putting his heart and soul into this - on a goof-up scale where running over somebody's dog is a 10 and misspelling "Albuquerque" is a 1, I put your calling the product a "soap" on the low side of the scale.

Nice topic Paul.

To me the key issue is "Why should we care?"  Back in the day, how firm a soap was may have been more important to most shavers than it is today.  Probably the hardest soaps lasted longer.  In a household that didn't spend one penny more than necessary on shaving - and perhaps only owned one soap at a time - harder soaps may have stood out as better values than croaps, and croaps as better values than better than creams, other things being equal.  Harder soaps probably  absorbed less water, and may have been less likely to grow mold etc. over time.  There is still a common view that soaps, in general, have longer shelf lives than creams, in general.  (I have no idea if this is supported by current science.)

These days what I really care about are things like

• How easy is it to load?
  
• How protective is it?
  
• How do I feel about the scent?
  
• How skin nourishing is it?
  
• How resistant to hard water degradation?
  
• How conveniently does it travel?
  

No doubt there are other considerations.  These days, the "How easy is it to load" nudges me slightly away from the hardest soaps.  Beyond that, I don't care.  For example, the only shelf life I care about is my own, as I would probably have to outlive Methuselah to use the soaps I have.

Some interesting thoughts Mike.

I can only speak to my experience, In regards to 'why do we care'. It is mostly because I've been called out for mislabeling a croap and it stuck in my mind. When I was reminded of it today, I figured it would be fun to discuss. In the end, you are right, it doesn't really matter... It's just fun.

You bring up creams, and that's a more polarizing difference to distinguish. Anyone who's a tub latherer will likely have a strong opinion against creams. I'd imagine creams likely don't last as long - ounce per ounce? Also, you could be right that they might be more volatile and go bad quicker? However, they are easier to load, and I believe easier for a soaper  to scent (do I have that right, Frank  Dragonsbeard ?). So, I guess there's always a trade-off.

Now that the discussion has made it all the way down to creams, this makes me think of those oils and butters. Is there any effect on the 'dehydration' of the butters and oils to make a triple or quad milled soap? Just a thought.

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I hope I did not sound critical of you in any way Paul.  Also, let me be clear that I myself have no idea regarding the shelf life of any particular modern cream or soap.  Actually, it is not an important issue to me personally.  OTOH and FWIW I do think the best of modern soaps tend to outperform the best modern creams I have used, but the best modern creams are still pretty darn good - more than good enough.  And that aside, I, too, have heard explanations - none better than Frank aka Dragonsbeard's - about why adding scent is generally more difficult and expensive with harder (hotter) soaps.

Also, I read the "soap/cream" conversation you referred to, and I think the artisan wanted to point out that his upcoming product may not fit well in any traditional product category.  No specifics were given or promises made, which is understandable at this stage.  Nevertheless, he seemed to me to suggest that the upcoming product - a sort of skincare shaving cream - may have important properties of other product categories.  He mentioned preshaves and shave oils and referenced some of his products.  I think it is fair for the artisan to highlight these things, because they are likely to be important to customers.  Even so - and with all due respect to the artisan, who is putting his heart and soul into this - on a goof-up scale where running over somebody's dog is a 10 and misspelling "Albuquerque" is a 1, I put your calling the product a "soap" on the low side of the scale.

Lol, I agree. I definitely didn't make a big mistake... And Mo is a great guy, he knew what I meant (I think) but definitely took the opportunity to explain the product better. I think that's absolutely awesome, because between him and Frank, we have two of the few leading soapers in the business ... right here where we can talk, question, and learn. It's pretty awesome, IMO.

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So on a whim (a sadistic whim) I picked up a cheap Gillette new Long comb. I got it for like $16 shipped, so no big expense. I don't honestly know why I bought it, I already know OC razors are my mortal enemy. Still, I did. It arrived today. Just as I expected, today's shave (with the new razor) was brought to you by the letters E, L and M (Street). Horrible shave that I gave up on, halfway through the third pass. Ooh well, I guess I needed to learn that lesson again.

Also tried B&M 42. The scent is odd, to say the least, and very much not my cup of tea. It might not be as bad a Vogon poetry, but it's definitely not for me.

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Oh man, Vogon poetry! I was in high school when our PBS radio station broadcast Hitchhikers, and always loved this line regarding the worst poetry in the Universe.

Grunthos the Flatulent recited his poem Ode to a Small Lump of Green Putty I Found in My Armpit One Midsummer Morning when four listeners died of internal hemorrhaging.

I fear that as I grow older, my staff my start calling me The Flatulent if I can't contain myself!

Sorry to read about your unpleasant experience. I obtained an "old" last year and really enjoy it. If you would like to move your New LC along, PM an offer. I have fallen off the restraint banwagon

Today's shave was with the last sample I wanted to try from the batch I recently received from The razor company: Grooming Dept Cyphre D'ananas. It is a sweet woodsy scent with some sharp greens and I think Pineapple. It took a bit more soap than I expected, but definitely made a great lather. Absolutely a top tier soap as you'd expect from GD. It reminds me a little bit of A&E Forbidden Fruit.

Now that I've completed my last sample shave, I'm going to be sending out all the samples I've accumulated so others can also partake and enjoy. As I have another item to go to Eric ewk , I'm going to start it with him and save on the shipping. When he's done, he can post it up for the next person... and so on, until it's not worth shipping or someone just wants to keep the rest. Up to you folks!

Speaking of samples, I can't speak enough good things about Jason and The Razor Company. All of the samples I received were packed to the lid. All had great official labels... very professional. In addition, he bent over backwards to make up for the order issue (which he absolutely didn't need to, it bothered him more than me). Top class gentleman.

I hope you like something in here Eric. Have a great evening folks!

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Most excellent of you, Paul! This is a great opportunity for folks, and from an outstanding member!

Most excellent of you, Paul! This is a great opportunity for folks, and from an outstanding member!

Thanks Eric. Samples definitely make for a good way to know what you do or don't like. I figure, if I can give a few others that same preview, perhaps they'll be able to make some 'informed purchases '... or in the very least, they'll be able to say they tried that soap/scent.

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I got my first shave in with the new TGN silvertip. It was quite good. As I had hoped, the tips softened up (a LOT) upon wetting them. It managed to hold three passes, barely, of lather. That was with a heavy handed loading. I still have trouble getting great 4+ pass lathers from a badger. Nonetheless, three was all I needed and it worked well. It did lose 5 hairs on this first shave. Likely normal, but I'll have to keep an eye out (and a running count).

All in all, I'd call it a success.

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I got my first shave in with the new TGN silvertip. It was quite good. As I had hoped, the tips softened up (a LOT) upon wetting them. It managed to hold three passes, barely, of lather. That was with a heavy handed loading. I still have trouble getting great 4+ pass lathers from a badger. Nonetheless, three was all I needed and it worked well. It did lose 5 hairs on this first shave. Likely normal, but I'll have to keep an eye out (and a running count).

All in all, I'd call it a success.

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Awesome looking brush! Isn't it amazing how a "small" knot (by the current trend towards 26mm) blooms so large?! My TGN knots both lost a few hairs the first couple of shaves, and almost none since then. May you have many wonderful shaves with this one, my friend!