#1

Posting Freak
I picked up a couple of ShaveMac made brush handles recently from apshavecoand I’m pretty happy with them. They’re ver nice as you can see below. I was wondering what the loft adjustment feature mentioned at the AP Shave website was about and if you look at the second picture you can see the top of a Phillips screw - I’m assuming that by dialing the screw up or down you can achieve the adjustment to your loft. Great idea!  Now on to the annoying little problem, which I emphasize, has nothing to do with AP Shave or the handles. You can see in the first image a couple of boar knots which I was planning to install in the AP Shave/ ShaveMac handles (emphasis on “was”). I love boar knots and I got these on a member’s recommendation a while back. They’re Stoat knots that I think I got from an Etsy merchant. They look pretty nice and I was excited to try them out. As you can see, they’re marked 26mm so I figured they’d fit into the handles which have a 26mm hole. The annoying little problem is that only the plastic base disc is 26mm, the bristles bulge out a little. That’s not normally a problem. I’ve done this before and usually the bristles can squeeze into the hole. It makes for a snug fit which is what you want. In the case of these Etsy Stoat knots, however, it appears that the glue used to adhere the bristles to the base has also bulged out with the bristles so there is no way the bristles are compressing to allow the knot to sit in the brush beyond the thickness of the base disc. That’s just not acceptable. It’s not sufficient gluing surface and I don’t want that much loft. They’re basically defective knots. I will probably be able to glue them into a larger diameter hole if I were inclined to get a couple more handles. I’m not going to enlarge the holes in these handles. I’ll just try to find some knots that are the actual diameter they’re sold as. Annoying. 
[Image: k01b7XC.jpg][Image: O0ACkoJ.jpg][Image: y8uwCaU.jpg][Image: 7fXXI7I.jpg][Image: yZX43uM.jpg]

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#2

Member
New York
(09-10-2023, 06:59 PM)Marko Wrote: I picked up a couple of ShaveMac made brush handles recently from apshavecoand I’m pretty happy with them. They’re ver nice as you can see below. I was wondering what the loft adjustment feature mentioned at the AP Shave website was about and if you look at the second picture you can see the top of a Phillips screw - I’m assuming that by dialing the screw up or down you can achieve the adjustment to your loft. Great idea!  Now on to the annoying little problem, which I emphasize, has nothing to do with AP Shave or the handles. You can see in the first image a couple of boar knots which I was planning to install in the AP Shave/ ShaveMac handles (emphasis on “was”). I love boar knots and I got these on a member’s recommendation a while back. They’re Stoat knots that I think I got from an Etsy merchant. They look pretty nice and I was excited to try them out. As you can see, they’re marked 26mm so I figured they’d fit into the handles which have a 26mm hole. The annoying little problem is that only the plastic base disc is 26mm, the bristles bulge out a little. That’s not normally a problem. I’ve done this before and usually the bristles can squeeze into the hole. It makes for a snug fit which is what you want. In the case of these Etsy Stoat knots, however, it appears that the glue used to adhere the bristles to the base has also bulged out with the bristles so there is no way the bristles are compressing to allow the knot to sit in the brush beyond the thickness of the base disc. That’s just not acceptable. It’s not sufficient gluing surface and I don’t want that much loft. They’re basically defective knots. I will probably be able to glue them into a larger diameter hole if I were inclined to get a couple more handles. I’m not going to enlarge the holes in these handles. I’ll just try to find some knots that are the actual diameter they’re sold as. Annoying. 
[Image: k01b7XC.jpg][Image: O0ACkoJ.jpg][Image: y8uwCaU.jpg][Image: 7fXXI7I.jpg][Image: yZX43uM.jpg]
That's the same problem I ran into with the two most recent APShaveCo knot batches I bought... Twice purchased, twice defective.

I don't think Andrew actually makes his own, so my guess is whoever the source is has an issue with quality control (most are from the same 1 or 2 Chinese manufacturers).

Now that you mention another vendor, I get the sinking feeling we may be seeing this more often from many retailers.

Marko likes this post
#3
As a general rule, the diameter of a knot is always given by the diameter of the glue-plug. Most knots are at least 1-2 mm larger than the nominal value. So, a 26 mm knot will need a 27, probably a 28 mm hole. I have run into knots that were actually 5-6 mm larger than their given size value (it was a 22 mm knot that needed a 28 mm hole - my customer was not pleased, But then, I was very new to this, say 2008 or 2009 or so, and now I know this much better. So far I have only one knot that needs exactly the hole that is the size of its nominal value: Muehle 25 mm STF - but they are set into a plastic cup. Their 23 mm knot needs only a 22 mm hole. These two are the only ones I came across with. Most natural hair/bristles need a larger hole. I think Shavemac may mention something on their site regarding knot size.

apshaveco, Dave in KY, muzichead and 1 others like this post
#4
(09-10-2023, 07:14 PM)mrdoug Wrote:
(09-10-2023, 06:59 PM)Marko Wrote: I picked up a couple of ShaveMac made brush handles recently from apshavecoand I’m pretty happy with them. They’re ver nice as you can see below. I was wondering what the loft adjustment feature mentioned at the AP Shave website was about and if you look at the second picture you can see the top of a Phillips screw - I’m assuming that by dialing the screw up or down you can achieve the adjustment to your loft. Great idea!  Now on to the annoying little problem, which I emphasize, has nothing to do with AP Shave or the handles. You can see in the first image a couple of boar knots which I was planning to install in the AP Shave/ ShaveMac handles (emphasis on “was”). I love boar knots and I got these on a member’s recommendation a while back. They’re Stoat knots that I think I got from an Etsy merchant. They look pretty nice and I was excited to try them out. As you can see, they’re marked 26mm so I figured they’d fit into the handles which have a 26mm hole. The annoying little problem is that only the plastic base disc is 26mm, the bristles bulge out a little. That’s not normally a problem. I’ve done this before and usually the bristles can squeeze into the hole. It makes for a snug fit which is what you want. In the case of these Etsy Stoat knots, however, it appears that the glue used to adhere the bristles to the base has also bulged out with the bristles so there is no way the bristles are compressing to allow the knot to sit in the brush beyond the thickness of the base disc. That’s just not acceptable. It’s not sufficient gluing surface and I don’t want that much loft. They’re basically defective knots. I will probably be able to glue them into a larger diameter hole if I were inclined to get a couple more handles. I’m not going to enlarge the holes in these handles. I’ll just try to find some knots that are the actual diameter they’re sold as. Annoying. 
[Image: k01b7XC.jpg][Image: O0ACkoJ.jpg][Image: y8uwCaU.jpg][Image: 7fXXI7I.jpg][Image: yZX43uM.jpg]
That's the same problem I ran into with the two most recent APShaveCo knot batches I bought... Twice purchased, twice defective.

I don't think Andrew actually makes his own, so my guess is whoever the source is has an issue with quality control (most are from the same 1 or 2 Chinese manufacturers).

Now that you mention another vendor, I get the sinking feeling we may be seeing this more often from many retailers.

These aren’t APShaveCo knots though. 
OP mentioned being from an Etsy vendor, I’m pretty sure Turn n Shave is the seller on the shoat knots.

Marko, mrdoug, muzichead and 1 others like this post
#5

Posting Freak
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2023, 11:19 PM by Marko.)
(09-10-2023, 08:21 PM)rudyvey Wrote: As a general rule, the diameter of a knot is always given by the diameter of the glue-plug. Most knots are at least 1-2 mm larger than the nominal value. So, a 26 mm knot will need a 27, probably a 28 mm hole. I have run into knots that were actually 5-6 mm larger than their given size value (it was a 22 mm knot that needed a 28 mm hole - my customer was not pleased, But then, I was very new to this, say 2008 or 2009 or so, and now I know this much better. So far I have only one knot that needs exactly the hole that is the size of its nominal value: Muehle 25 mm STF - but they are set into a plastic cup. Their 23 mm knot needs only a 22 mm hole. These two are the only ones I came across with. Most natural hair/bristles need a larger hole. I think Shavemac may mention something on their site regarding knot size.
Good to know. As I mentioned, I’ve done this before but only once with a couple of beautiful Trotter Handcraft handles and a Maggards boar knot and that nice Manchurian badger knot Paul sold. They were both 26mm knots that I fitted into handles with 26mm holes so that was what I was going with.  To be clear, this is not an AP Shave problem. Also, I didn’t read that on the ShaveMac website because I didn’t buy the handles there. This leaves me in the world of chaos and randomness which is exacerbated by the nature of online commerce. Maybe I’ll just lash those stoat knots to a stick. A nice stick but one of known dimensions ensuring compatibility! Smile

mrdoug likes this post
#6

Just Here for the Shaves
Williamsburg, KY
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2023, 11:38 PM by Dave in KY.)
(09-10-2023, 10:58 PM)jesseix Wrote:
(09-10-2023, 07:14 PM)mrdoug Wrote:
(09-10-2023, 06:59 PM)Marko Wrote: I picked up a couple of ShaveMac made brush handles recently from apshavecoand I’m pretty happy with them. They’re ver nice as you can see below. I was wondering what the loft adjustment feature mentioned at the AP Shave website was about and if you look at the second picture you can see the top of a Phillips screw - I’m assuming that by dialing the screw up or down you can achieve the adjustment to your loft. Great idea!  Now on to the annoying little problem, which I emphasize, has nothing to do with AP Shave or the handles. You can see in the first image a couple of boar knots which I was planning to install in the AP Shave/ ShaveMac handles (emphasis on “was”). I love boar knots and I got these on a member’s recommendation a while back. They’re Stoat knots that I think I got from an Etsy merchant. They look pretty nice and I was excited to try them out. As you can see, they’re marked 26mm so I figured they’d fit into the handles which have a 26mm hole. The annoying little problem is that only the plastic base disc is 26mm, the bristles bulge out a little. That’s not normally a problem. I’ve done this before and usually the bristles can squeeze into the hole. It makes for a snug fit which is what you want. In the case of these Etsy Stoat knots, however, it appears that the glue used to adhere the bristles to the base has also bulged out with the bristles so there is no way the bristles are compressing to allow the knot to sit in the brush beyond the thickness of the base disc. That’s just not acceptable. It’s not sufficient gluing surface and I don’t want that much loft. They’re basically defective knots. I will probably be able to glue them into a larger diameter hole if I were inclined to get a couple more handles. I’m not going to enlarge the holes in these handles. I’ll just try to find some knots that are the actual diameter they’re sold as. Annoying. 
[Image: k01b7XC.jpg][Image: O0ACkoJ.jpg][Image: y8uwCaU.jpg][Image: 7fXXI7I.jpg][Image: yZX43uM.jpg]
That's the same problem I ran into with the two most recent APShaveCo knot batches I bought... Twice purchased, twice defective.

I don't think Andrew actually makes his own, so my guess is whoever the source is has an issue with quality control (most are from the same 1 or 2 Chinese manufacturers).

Now that you mention another vendor, I get the sinking feeling we may be seeing this more often from many retailers.

These aren’t APShaveCo knots though. 
OP mentioned being from an Etsy vendor, I’m pretty sure Turn n Shave is the seller on the shoat knots.

(09-10-2023, 11:18 PM)Marko Wrote:
(09-10-2023, 08:21 PM)rudyvey Wrote: As a general rule, the diameter of a knot is always given by the diameter of the glue-plug. Most knots are at least 1-2 mm larger than the nominal value. So, a 26 mm knot will need a 27, probably a 28 mm hole. I have run into knots that were actually 5-6 mm larger than their given size value (it was a 22 mm knot that needed a 28 mm hole - my customer was not pleased, But then, I was very new to this, say 2008 or 2009 or so, and now I know this much better. So far I have only one knot that needs exactly the hole that is the size of its nominal value: Muehle 25 mm STF - but they are set into a plastic cup. Their 23 mm knot needs only a 22 mm hole. These two are the only ones I came across with. Most natural hair/bristles need a larger hole. I think Shavemac may mention something on their site regarding knot size.
Good to know. As I mentioned, I’ve done this before but only once with a couple of beautiful Trotter Handcraft handles and a Maggards boar knot and that nice Manchurian badger knot Paul sold. They were both 26mm knots that I fitted into handles with 26mm holes so that was what I was going with.  To be clear, this is not an AP Shave problem. Also, I didn’t read that on the ShaveMac website because I didn’t buy the handles there. This leaves me in the world of chaos and randomness which is exacerbated by the nature of online commerce. Maybe I’ll just lash those stoat knots to a stick. A nice stick but one of known dimensions ensuring compatibility! Smile

I believe mrdoug Paul was saying that he and I think another member had the same problem with APShave knots on more than one occasion. May be broader the just the OP's source. Paul of Trotter Handcrafts must have been aware because I remember him saying he always drilled his holes wider to avoid these issues. That's just my observations going back a bit. I know it's frustrating as I've run into it myself and can't remember the source of my knots but it was neither of these 2 companies. Again indicating a broader issue than 1 source.

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This post by Dave in KY mentions views and opinions expressed and makes it known that they are "those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of DFS or any other member, agency, organization, employer or company."  Big Grin
#7

Posting Freak
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2023, 11:55 PM by Marko.)
Thanks Dave in KY The concept of “nominal “ dimensions is nothing new. You’d think that the knot makers would address the issue and I can’t imagine it would be hard. A removable collar around the base of the knot during the glue up would solve the problem. Assuming where most of these knots originate, I’m thinking they aren’t interested in another step in their process. 

Reminds me of back in the late 1970s when I was an apprentice carpenter. Canada had just converted to the metric system. The changeover went relatively smoothly assuming you weren’t the pilot or passengers of the airliner known as the Gimli glider. That’s an interesting story. As carpenters we built stuff out of wood mostly. Using dimensional lumber of nominal dimensions. A 2x4 isn’t actually 2” by 4” but 1 1/2” x 3 1/2” or 38mm x 89mm in metric. We would use a couple of 2 bys on flat to frame headers over openings but that would be 1/2” short if the 3 1/2” of the framed wall do we’d sandwich a piece of 1/2” plywood to fill it out. Well, with the metric changeover the Canadian mills that produced metric lumber made 13mm plywood for what had formerly been 1/2”. US mills were still making imperial 1/2” plywood and 13mm and 1/2” aren’t the same. We would have lumber from mills on both sides of the border. If you needed your helper to get you 1/2” plywood for headers he’d ask if you wanted metric 1/2” or imperial 1/2”. Hilarious. In Canada most of us have got used to metric but for my generation that went K to 12 in imperial and had to switch shortly thereafter it’s been interesting. I still convert kilometres to miles in my head when travelling on the highway. So, do I need a big 26mm hole in my brush handle or can I go with a true 26mm!

Dave in KY likes this post
#8

Just Here for the Shaves
Williamsburg, KY
(09-10-2023, 11:52 PM)Marko Wrote: Thanks Dave in KY The concept of “nominal “ dimensions is nothing new. You’d think that the knot makers would address the issue and I can’t imagine it would be hard. A removable collar around the base of the knot during the glue up would solve the problem. Assuming where most of these knots originate, I’m thinking they aren’t interested in another step in their process. 

Reminds me of back in the late 1970s when I was an apprentice carpenter. Canada had just converted to the metric system. The changeover went relatively smoothly assuming you weren’t the pilot or passengers of the airliner known as the Gimli glider. That’s an interesting story. As carpenters we built stuff out of wood mostly. Using dimensional lumber of nominal dimensions. A 2x4 isn’t actually 2” by 4” but 1 1/2” x 3 1/2” or 38mm x 89mm in metric. We would use a couple of 2 bys on flat to frame headers over openings but that would be 1/2” short if the 3 1/2” of the framed wall do we’d sandwich a piece of 1/2” plywood to fill it out. Well, with the metric changeover the Canadian mills that produced metric lumber made 13mm plywood for what had formerly been 1/2”. US mills were still making imperial 1/2” plywood and 13mm and 1/2” aren’t the same. We would have lumber from mills on both sides of the border. If you needed your helper to get you 1/2” plywood for headers he’d ask if you wanted metric 1/2” or imperial 1/2”. Hilarious. In Canada most of us have got used to metric but for my generation that went K to 12 in imperial and had to switch shortly thereafter it’s been interesting. I still convert kilometres to miles in my head when travelling on the highway. So, do I need a big 26mm hole in my brush handle or can I go with a true 26mm!
I'm familiar with the 1/2 inch plywood fix and that's a funny story, Thanks

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This post by Dave in KY mentions views and opinions expressed and makes it known that they are "those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of DFS or any other member, agency, organization, employer or company."  Big Grin
#9

Just Here for the Shaves
Williamsburg, KY
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2023, 12:08 AM by Dave in KY.)
Marko When I worked with a guy doing plumbing and electric and we were piping things and calling out measurements I would drive him nutz by saying stuff like 2 and a half and 2 of those little lines instead of 2 and 5 eighths  Big Grin

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This post by Dave in KY mentions views and opinions expressed and makes it known that they are "those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of DFS or any other member, agency, organization, employer or company."  Big Grin
#10

Posting Freak
(09-11-2023, 12:04 AM)Dave in KY Wrote: Marko When I worked with a guy doing plumbing and electric and we were piping things and calling out measurements I would drive him nutz by saying stuff like 2 and a half and 2 of those little lines instead of 2 and 5 eighths  Big Grin

Yup, like 2 and half heavy or 2 and a half light. Fat line? Thin line? Run your saw a bit closer to or further from the line? You never looked at the blade guide while cutting only right at the blade. Squinting mandatory. That’s where metric made it easier. 428mm was easier than whatever and 21/72. Thankfully, as I was reminded on occasion, we’re not building pianos here!

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