What is the definition of an Artisan?

I have enjoyed (most of) this now long thread.
Learned something too.

New to me is that I now consider Klar, Valobra and even Creighton artisans.

New to me, but not really surprised because THEY ARE, that Barrister & Mann Will and Michelle at Mystic Waters are in fact ARTISTS and not so much artisans.

Regarding the fragrance cloning discussion, I - as a fragrance lover - have my own standpoints.

Do I like when a fragrance is blatantly copied ? No.
But is it something, that will really pizz me off ? No. Perhaps if I was the perfumer, whos scent was copied.

What I do really HATE INTENSELY, is directly copy clone products. Where someone is trying to duplicate the whole scent and brand name to make the buyer believe he buys the original. This is a serious problem.

When others are trying to recreate your fragrance, but calling it another name, I would feel kind of flattered. A sure sign of recognition that you made something worthwhile for others to try to duplicate.

I own a number of Creed fragrances. Anyone smelled Mont Blanc Individuelle ?
Well let's just say Creed looked and smelled that one before they made Creed Original Santal. Is the Creed better ? In my opinion yes, but they are 97% identical.

Everyone is loaning from someone at some stage in their life, even Creed.

I own Creed Aventus and enjoy it.
I also own 2 obvious Aventus clones.
Are they better ? Not really. But they smell nice and I respect them for giving it a try.
One clone cost circa the same as the original Aventus and is made by Bond no. 9
The other clone is made by a clone house called Armaf. I actually think Armaf did such a good job at cloning the Creed Aventus, that I must salute them. It takes talent to make such a well done Wonderfull smelling Aventus clone ;-)

CHSeifert I agree with your comments, someone said (2 points for correct attribution) that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. If they're trying to copy your style then they are clearly indicating that you have something worthy of imitation. There is a difference between knock-offs/counterfeits that are trying to fool and cheat by appearing to be the original product when they aren't and products that merely try to imitate a well known fragrance. There is also those fragrances which take inspiration from other, well known fragrances but are essentially a new and different fragrance. Like an improvisation in a jazz number - not the same but clearly inspired by the original. That is often an art in itself. An example would be Bay Rum - if all bay rums smelled the same I would only need to have 1 soap and 1 aftershave but, luckily they don't all smell the same. Barrister_N_Mann 's bay rum is a unique riff on traditional bay rum as is Mystic Water 's bay rum - obviously inspired by bay rum but each with their own unique interpretation. Thats a wonderful thing.

What I do really HATE INTENSELY, is directly copy clone products. Where someone is trying to duplicate the whole scent and brand name to make the buyer believe he buys the original. This is a serious problem.

That is counterfeiting and surely illegal everywhere.

OK, How many people work at the MdC factory. About every reference to MdC calls it a "factory". They also use the word "artisanal" for their soaps but "factory" is used over and over again.

Previously in this thread, the concept of an artisan being a single individually slaving away in their basement handling all aspects of the business seemed to be prevalent. Forgetting the "artist" definition. I suspect, but have not definitive proof, that MdC employees a FAIR amount of employees, surely more than one making soap.

I'll guess there are at least 40 employees.

OK, How many people work at the MdC factory. About every reference to MdC calls it a "factory". They also use the word "artisanal" for their soaps but "factory" is used over and over again.

Previously in this thread, the concept of an artisan being a single individually slaving away in their basement handling all aspects of the business seemed to be prevalent. Forgetting the "artist" definition. I suspect, but have not definitive proof, that MdC employees a FAIR amount of employees, surely more than one making soap.

I'll guess there are at least 40 employees.

I don;t disagree with you, but for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate...

Is it not possible that MdC employs a handful of skilled artisans to perform the task of making their soap by hand, with skill, following an extablished recipe?

I am not implying that I know this to be true by any stretch, but it seems conducive to further discussion to decide if this tactic would qualify a large production factory as "artisanal", considering the work would still be done by hand, by skilled workers, each creating a comparatively small batch of soap following an established recipe.

This would seem to qualify more than say, a large production facility using robotics and digital calibrations to carefully measure out ingredients in an endless production line of soaps...

Again, I'm not trying to imply that this is the case with any of our known soap-makers. Just trying to advance an interesting discussion with more ideas and options to mull over...

OK, How many people work at the MdC factory. About every reference to MdC calls it a "factory". They also use the word "artisanal" for their soaps but "factory" is used over and over again.

Previously in this thread, the concept of an artisan being a single individually slaving away in their basement handling all aspects of the business seemed to be prevalent. Forgetting the "artist" definition. I suspect, but have not definitive proof, that MdC employees a FAIR amount of employees, surely more than one making soap.

I'll guess there are at least 40 employees.

grim,

Hold your horses there cow poke. According to your own definition, the more of them there are, following some exact recipe, in the same exact way, for purely utilitarian purposes, the more artisanal they are.

Is it not possible that MdC employs a handful of skilled artisans to perform the task of making their soap by hand, with skill, following an extablished recipe?

Yes, I agree. And so does Castle Forbes and C&S and all the rest of them. I believe ALL the makers of these soaps employ a boatload of "artisans" following a recipe. From what I could find online, MdC is not a small place - they have factory tours! They have their stores and associated employees stocking shelves, selling products, never mind those that actually make the soap, bottle it, label it, etc. But these artisans are not artists.

MdC is not a one person in his basement making "small batches", although the definition of "small" is probably in question.

I suspect VdH and Williams makes a VAST quantity of soaps while these other places like DR Harris or Penhaligons make very few numbers. A lot of time stuff is out of stock.

CHSeifert I agree with your comments, someone said (2 points for correct attribution) that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.  ...

Wasn't that Elizabeth Taylor?

I prefer the title "Mad Scientist", personally.  

CHSeifert I agree with your comments, someone said (2 points for correct attribution) that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.  ...

Wasn't that Elizabeth Taylor?

Sorry, Google says it was Charles Caleb Colton (1780–1832) an English cleric, writer and collector, well known for his eccentricity.