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#11

Super Moderator
(01-10-2017, 05:12 PM)GoHabs Wrote:
(01-10-2017, 04:10 PM)Marko Wrote: If he goes au naturel will it be the Albino Mamba? Big Grin

How about "Naked Mamba"!

I don't know if that will work for me. For better or worse I associate "Black Mamba" with Kobe Bryant so not sure about the naked part.
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#12
(01-10-2017, 06:35 PM)slantman Wrote:
(01-10-2017, 05:55 PM)bakerbarber Wrote: The handle.

The Oristo handle is one only a mother could love.

I really appreciate the opportunity some vendors give us to buy razor heads without handles. The whole industry would offer the option in my perfect world.

The Oristo works for me including the handle. It is a great shaver.

Good to hear! I have a Stealth on the way.
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#13
I certainly like the looks of the original but otherwise know nothing about it. I've heard it called mild. Please post comments how the original BM stacked up, aggression-wise, against other razors.
Ron
#14
(01-10-2017, 04:09 PM)Nuki Man Wrote: This will kill off the interest in the Oristo which is a Mamba knock off.  They are selling the black version for $250 CAD on their site.  That translates to roughly $190 USD plus shipping and Joe was selling them at $120 shipped.  Provided Joe keeps his pricing the same, the Oristo will not be able to compete.

I may be wrong here, but I don't think the Oristo is a "Mamba knock off." It appears to me that the group that manufactured the original BM for Italian Barber decided to make their own version, which they are calling Oristo. I'm guessing that they made a deal where they would make new versions that IB would sell and that they would sell their own version, which has different coatings and their own handle design. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Mambas that IB sells don't have the same handle as the Oristos, but the heads are the same.
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#15

Super Moderator
Why am I always the last to the party? I'd never even heard of Oristo until this thread and here I find its a kickstarter that is well along. Was it a secret kickstarter?
Here is the website for anybody who, like me hasn't seen this before.



Does anybody know if they've actually delivered on schedule? That would have been Dec.1/16 and if so, again best kept secret in shaving.

No doubt its a RR Black Mamba clone or at least the head is and if it performs as well, then anybody who has been thinking of selling their Black Mamba for profit better do so fast because its resale value will drop like a stone - to where any used in production razor should sell for. I'm curious to know the back story on this. Did IB make a deal with Oristo? Are IB and Oristo related? Did IB even own the IP rights to the BM? Did it take this long to sort out IP rights? Obviously IB wasn't interested in financing a large production run. So many questions.Big Grin
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#16

Member
Ferndale, MI
Marko, I was curious about the razor as well when I saw slantman post in the "what razor did you use today" thread that he used the Oristo. So I did some research. I found a thread on reddit where Joe (razorock) acknowledged that it was a clone of the Black Mamba and was cool with it since there are no patents or trademarks involved. Just a result of free market capitalism I guess. Early backers of the Kickstarter could get the razor for under $100, but now they are asking a ridiculous price for it IMO. I imagine the new iteration of the BM will be more affordable than the Oristo.
- Jeff
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#17

Super Moderator
(01-11-2017, 04:09 PM)wyze0ne Wrote: Marko, I was curious about the razor as well when I saw slantman post in the "what razor did you use today" thread that he used the Oristo. So I did some research. I found a thread on reddit where Joe (razorock) acknowledged that it was a clone of the Black Mamba and was cool with it since there are no patents or trademarks involved. Just a result of free market capitalism I guess. Early backers of the Kickstarter could get the razor for under $100, but now they are asking a ridiculous price for it IMO. I imagine the new iteration of the BM will be more affordable than the Oristo.

Thats interesting wyze0ne and, I suppose, its the consequences of ignoring market demand for a product. Nature abhors a vacuum as they say so these other guys stepped in to fill the void. I'm guessing, as did a poster above, that Oristo is being made by the same manufacturer in Asia using the same specs. The unique aspect of the BM that I think may have been patentable (obviously subject to existence of prior art) is the blade locater pegs being on the base plate - or the anvil as the O boys call it. The challenge in seeking a worldwide patent on an item such as a razor is the high costs associated with it relative to the modest value of the product. It just doesn't make business sense and even if you did seek/obtain patents, then you have to enforce the patents at your own cost if there is infringement. This is all going on multi-jurisdictionally and the legal costs are just stupid. Then even if you do get patents and spend the money to seek damages/injunctions against infringers, they have to have money and assets to satisfy the judgements. Its like a huge game of whack-a-mole and really, for a razor? What do you think the total annual worldwide sales of the Oristo would be? Probably less than the legal costs just to file patent applications. So I figure the Oristo boys approached the manufacturer and inquired about making the BM for them - they'll pay up front. Even if IB had a contract with the manufacturer for exclusive distribution in Canada or the USA that manufacturer would have no problem selling Oristo a container of razors FOB Guangzhou and not violate any North American exclusive agreements. Its not their business what Oristo does with them after that. Its not personal, just business. Now Joe approaches Oristo to say hey, what the...? They say too bad, sue us, we're a foreign registered company with no assets, knock yourself out - even if you do get some kind of injunction agains Oristo sales in Canada good luck enforcing it and if you can enforce it, who really cares about the puny Canadian market anyway. Nope, there is really nothing Joe could do at this point and he's smart enough not to throw his money away trying to chase these knock-off dogs down some rabbit hole.

Lesson learned - IB could have avoided this by selling as many Black Mambas as the market wanted when it wanted them. There would have been no Oristo if everybody who wanted a RazoRock Black Mamba had one already. As much as I think Joe dropped the ball on this one, on principle I would buy a Black Mamba from Italian Barber/RazoRock because I don't care for the knock-off dogs and Joe was the one who originally brought this product to market and he created the market for it. Unfortunately he had lots on his plate at the time and wouldn't / couldn't fill the demand.

Whats next for the Knock-off Dogs?
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#18
Marko-- I have the same questions as you. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the guys at Oristo made a video essentially implying that they were responsible for the design and production of the Black Mamba, which they did not refer to by name. Whether or not they manufacture the razors in Canada or China, they seem to be representing that they were instrumental in designing the original razor, and in creating an improved version. If in fact this were not true, and Joe was responsible for it, I'm guessing he'd be up in arms about them ripping his design off. Combine this with the fact that they, like him are located in Toronto leads me to believe that Joe used them to design and create the original razor.

As Joe has stated many times, he's not really in the razor business and makes them for fun. I think making limited numbers of razors is part of the fun for him. This is no criticism of Joe: I'm a RR customer and enjoy several of his products.

Here's what I'm guessing happened: the guys at the design/build shop saw the unmet demand for the razor and decided to go into production. As part of their agreement with Joe, they would make razors for him to sell with the original name. They would make their version just different enough (handle, etc) to brand it. They may have even agreed to price their version higher than Joe's so as to not cannibalize his sales.

Maybe I'm totally wrong: maybe they are just cloning what Joe made with someone else. Perhaps someone from Oristo will comment on this at some point.
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#19
Wow, Marko, superb legal analysis, and spot on.

All I know is I paid post-Kickstarter price for the Oristo in black (Stealth), got it in two days, had my first shave with it, and it's a very mild and smooth shaver. No issues with the handle. I'm also on the list to be notified when Joe makes the Black Mamba available again.

I don't have a Black Mamba nor have I ever shaved with one, but from the reviews I've read of it, the pictures I've seen, and my experience with the Oristo Stealth, I would speculate that they're pretty close in performance.
All the best,

Michael P
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#20
(01-11-2017, 07:41 PM)Michael P Wrote: . . . I'm also on the list to be notified when Joe makes the Black Mamba available again. . .
I didn't think to look if there was a notification box on the IB site for this. Thanks to your mention, that has now been rectified. Smile
Ron
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