#21

Super Moderator
One of the key components which hasn’t been discussed here is the difference between sale price and market value. They are not the same thing. Sale price is the amount a willing buyer and willing seller have agreed upon whereas market value is the amount typical buyers will likely pay for an item. Having said that, there are many times the two amounts are the same. But there are also times when they are not the same and, in those instances, it is possible that an outlier has been established.

If you refer back to @lipripper660’s example, the gent who paid $100k for the car paid far more than what other buyers were willing to pay. The sale price for that particular car was $100k but most buyers (ie typical buyers) are only willing to pay around $50k. For the gent who paid $100k, that is what the car was worth to the individual…maybe they have some sentimental reason for buying the particular model/year/etc. In other words, the gent who paid twice as much as most buyers would pay likely had a much different motivation for buying the car. However, the market value is $50k based on the comments that state “there was really only one buyer at that price and the price goes back to $50k.”

For a BBS-1, it would appear based on the comments in this thread that the “typical” buyer is a collector. In order to determine the market value of a BBS-1, then it is necessary to have prior sales of the product in order to do a comparative analysis. Ideally, there would be sufficient sales data to analyze. Elements which would likely be considered in the analysis would be the serial #, the overall condition, date of sale (ie was it before or after the announcement that the BBS-1 would be discontinued), the motivation of the buyer and seller, and the current supply/demand of a BBS-1. If most BBS-1s sell between $1,000 and $1,500 but the current listing on the BST actually sells for $2,000, then it’s possible (and perhaps even likely) the sale price of $2,000 represents the worth to an individual and would then establish an outlier.

FWIW, I personally believe a Seller should be allowed to ask whatever price they want. However, I do wish there was a polite/non-negative method to let buyers know that the asking price may be higher than what was offered in the past. The reason for this is so that a buyer simply knows what they are getting into. Using the car example, if the buyer paid $100k but was a misinformed buyer, then the buyer may never recoup his investment. And I understand the argument that a buyer should be informed prior to making a purchase. But, with all due respect to that argument, there are many “fanboy” comments regarding various products and it can be difficult for a buyer to truly know the “value” of an item. I also understand there will likely never be a way to “politely” inform the market as human behavior plays a major role in this scenario and if someone feels they are being called out for “over-listing”, they will respond with similar negativity.

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#22
(01-03-2020, 03:59 PM)nikos.a Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 01:19 PM)pork Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 11:44 AM)nikos.a Wrote: I'm definitely not an expert on scarcity or a collector nowadays but I'll play. BBS-1 would be any serious collector's choice over a Ti WR2. But why? Let's go.

-First and foremost, it's a discontinued hi-end numbered razor.
Do you really need more to hear?
-It was created during a period that $220 for a razor was a crazy amount of money. Now it's just a normal price. Back in the day, trust me, it was not.
-Besides just designing a razor, James also created the hi-end market of razors. iKon, ATT were on the market, but let's be honest. They are nowhere near the quality of a Wolfman.
-When he made this, I'm referring to James, he was practically an unknown machinist in this hobby. Nobody knew him. This razor changed his life and career, along with John@LASSC of course. There is no Wolfman logo on the baseplate mainly because it didn't exist as a company when he made this. He started making his own razors (WR1) way after designing the razor. It was just a project for the LASSC and you could buy it only through the latter.
-WR2 is a design based on the BBS-1. The original will always be more worthy. Always.
-You had to wait almost two years.
-BBS-1 is the first of its line of the hi-end razors as we use to call this market today.
etc.

This topic has been discussed so so many times... Yet people can't understand basic things and keep bitching. Most if not all people in this hobby, at least those who like modern hi-end razors, would love to own a piece of modern history.

Ok, I think I understand where you’re coming from. As a user, not a collector, I see things through a user’s lens. I’d much rather use a Ti razor made by James than a SS razor made by him. Despite your condescending tone, your post is somewhat helpful.

I apologize if I sounded like that in my previous post. If you're wondering why nobody talks about this razor anymore, it's because these are old news. Numerous of threads and numerous of conflicts about this exact topic. Every time I read a thread about this feels like starring in the "Groundhog Day". The same questions over and over again. A member above still asks how much these were going for... Like it makes any difference or it hasn't already been written a thousand times. Nobody is supposed to know it, it's not that important anyway, but if someone reads my previous post will see the price these were going for. $220 for the first 200 I think and then $299.

I believe I summarized why the BBS-1 is what it is. For me, the 2k price point is actually reasonable, since I know I would not let the one I currently have go for that price. It cost me an arm and a leg. And I'm not a collector anymore. I sold pretty much everything I had to fellow members and on Ebay. I just have a few pieces I like and enjoy my shaves with them. That's all. These are not going anywhere.

Also, a collector does not care if this shaves better that what he already has. He has to have that one also in his collection. There is no logic in collecting stuff. A "logical" person would have a razor, a brush, a couple of soaps and a few blades and he would be very happy with them. A collector always searches for his next purchase.

There was a limited run of about 10 Ti BBS-1 some years ago. How about this true unicorn? How would you price that? It's almost priceless for a collector. I read reviews of members who have both and they actually prefer the stainless steel version, it shaves better according to them.

It's not just the material. Sure, the Ti is more exotic, but the BBS-1 has a history behind its name and that is more valuable than any material.

Finally, someone would say that comparing a Ti WR2 with a x,y,z gap to a ss BBS-1 is not a good idea for all the reasons I analyzed in my two posts. Let me tell you that the BBS-1 is a very effective razor and provides excellent shaves. It's a tad on the aggressive side, there is some blade feel but it does not bite you. The person with the highest gap in his WR2 feels very macho nowadays and easily thinks that it has to be a closer shaver than any other with a smaller gap. I read a similar comment I think in this very thread. If I were in his shoes, I would launch a NEW higher gap in the WR2 every week. There is a market for them by people who have to own the most "eFfEcTiVe" razor. Enough with the comments of people who haven't tried a product and like to make assumptions about it. They are the same people who make the reviews seem useless.

No worries at all. Thanks for the explanation. I think where I have miscalculated is the "collector" thing. It makes me wonder how many BBS-1s are sitting in boxes, unused, right now. Like I said, I use all my gear, cheap or expensive. So the collector factor was sort of lost on me.

Like I said, I never took issue with the price. I almost never do. It was more the X vs. Y that threw me for a loop, but I sort of get it now. I love my Ti Wolfman razors. They're sort of souring me on my SS razors (I don't like the weight). So I guess I was letting my personal feelings color my idea of which should be worth more. 

I stand by the limited number of Ti Wolfmans thing though. If we knew for a fact there would be no more ever, I think that might change things. And I still do believe that there will never be as many Ti WR2s as SS BBS-1s, but we'll see. 

This was never a thread to bitch about prices. Thanks to those of you who chimed in and helped shed some light on this.

User 852 and LOOT like this post
#23

Posting Freak
(01-03-2020, 11:44 AM)nikos.a Wrote: I'm definitely not an expert on scarcity or a collector nowadays but I'll play. BBS-1 would be any serious collector's choice over a Ti WR2. But why? Let's go.

-First and foremost, it's a discontinued hi-end numbered razor.
Do you really need more to hear?
-It was created during a period that $220 for a razor was a crazy amount of money. Now it's just a normal price. Back in the day, trust me, it was not.
-Besides just designing a razor, James also created the hi-end market of razors. iKon, ATT were on the market, but let's be honest. They are nowhere near the quality of a Wolfman.
-When he made this, I'm referring to James, he was practically an unknown machinist in this hobby. Nobody knew him. This razor changed his life and career, along with John@LASSC of course. There is no Wolfman logo on the baseplate mainly because it didn't exist as a company when he made this. He started making his own razors (WR1) way after designing the razor. It was just a project for the LASSC and you could buy it only through the latter.
-WR2 is a design based on the BBS-1. The original will always be more worthy. Always.
-You had to wait almost two years.
-BBS-1 is the first of its line of the hi-end razors as we use to call this market today.
etc.

This topic has been discussed so so many times... Yet people can't understand basic things and keep bitching. Most if not all people in this hobby, at least those who like modern hi-end razors, would love to own a piece of modern history.
I'd be interested in hearing the story of how LASSC and James Dufour got together to make the BBS1.  First, why did a soap company from LA even want to make/sell a r=razor?  How did he hear of and or meet James?  I live a couple of hours south of where James lives and works.  Trust me, its off the beaten path.  I know in today's Information Age that's not necessarily and issue but its still an improbable meeting that led to an improbable business opportunity.  Does anyone know the story?

User 852 likes this post
#24

Member
Florida
(01-04-2020, 08:41 PM)Marko Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 11:44 AM)nikos.a Wrote: I'm definitely not an expert on scarcity or a collector nowadays but I'll play. BBS-1 would be any serious collector's choice over a Ti WR2. But why? Let's go.

-First and foremost, it's a discontinued hi-end numbered razor.
Do you really need more to hear?
-It was created during a period that $220 for a razor was a crazy amount of money. Now it's just a normal price. Back in the day, trust me, it was not.
-Besides just designing a razor, James also created the hi-end market of razors. iKon, ATT were on the market, but let's be honest. They are nowhere near the quality of a Wolfman.
-When he made this, I'm referring to James, he was practically an unknown machinist in this hobby. Nobody knew him. This razor changed his life and career, along with John@LASSC of course. There is no Wolfman logo on the baseplate mainly because it didn't exist as a company when he made this. He started making his own razors (WR1) way after designing the razor. It was just a project for the LASSC and you could buy it only through the latter.
-WR2 is a design based on the BBS-1. The original will always be more worthy. Always.
-You had to wait almost two years.
-BBS-1 is the first of its line of the hi-end razors as we use to call this market today.
etc.

This topic has been discussed so so many times... Yet people can't understand basic things and keep bitching. Most if not all people in this hobby, at least those who like modern hi-end razors, would love to own a piece of modern history.
I'd be interested in hearing the story of how LASSC and James Dufour got together to make the BBS1.  First, why did a soap company from LA even want to make/sell a r=razor?  How did he hear of and or meet James?  I live a couple of hours south of where James lives and works.  Trust me, its off the beaten path.  I know in today's Information Age that's not necessarily and issue but its still an improbable meeting that led to an improbable business opportunity.  Does anyone know the story?
James met the guy from LASSC on reddit on some kind of entrepreneur subreddit. He was looking for a machinist and James was looking for something different to do.

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#25
(01-04-2020, 08:41 PM)Marko Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 11:44 AM)nikos.a Wrote: I'm definitely not an expert on scarcity or a collector nowadays but I'll play. BBS-1 would be any serious collector's choice over a Ti WR2. But why? Let's go.

-First and foremost, it's a discontinued hi-end numbered razor.
Do you really need more to hear?
-It was created during a period that $220 for a razor was a crazy amount of money. Now it's just a normal price. Back in the day, trust me, it was not.
-Besides just designing a razor, James also created the hi-end market of razors. iKon, ATT were on the market, but let's be honest. They are nowhere near the quality of a Wolfman.
-When he made this, I'm referring to James, he was practically an unknown machinist in this hobby. Nobody knew him. This razor changed his life and career, along with John@LASSC of course. There is no Wolfman logo on the baseplate mainly because it didn't exist as a company when he made this. He started making his own razors (WR1) way after designing the razor. It was just a project for the LASSC and you could buy it only through the latter.
-WR2 is a design based on the BBS-1. The original will always be more worthy. Always.
-You had to wait almost two years.
-BBS-1 is the first of its line of the hi-end razors as we use to call this market today.
etc.

This topic has been discussed so so many times... Yet people can't understand basic things and keep bitching. Most if not all people in this hobby, at least those who like modern hi-end razors, would love to own a piece of modern history.
I'd be interested in hearing the story of how LASSC and James Dufour got together to make the BBS1.  First, why did a soap company from LA even want to make/sell a r=razor?  How did he hear of and or meet James?  I live a couple of hours south of where James lives and works.  Trust me, its off the beaten path.  I know in today's Information Age that's not necessarily and issue but its still an improbable meeting that led to an improbable business opportunity.  Does anyone know the story?
John started a thread on reddit years ago, if we can call these "threads", I'm not a redditor so not sure how you call them, asking for a machinist to make a razor. James sent him a message I think and you know the rest story. James then bought a Baili Tech clone and started experimenting on the design. He even posted some photos of his progress into the final model.

So, we have to thank reddit for all these.

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#26
The photo I was referring to.
[Image: bf79c6d687883c580fcd8921b7b57d33.jpg]

Weekly, BPman, Batmanacci and 6 others like this post
#27
That’s a pretty cool pic
#28

Member
Knoxville, TN
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020, 09:37 PM by Steve56.)
[Image: uN8po1a.jpg]
[Image: P8U5ejF.jpg]

I’ve been following this thread and the ‘Wolfman pricing’ thread, and I think that everyone is missing a big part of the phenomena of ‘outrageously’ priced DE razors (spoiler; they aren’t overpriced, they’re the first of a new class in DE razors). The point is that it isn’t about collectibility or shaveability (though reportedly they do shave very well). What Wolfman and the derivatives (BBS-1) offer is luxury. For some reason, DE makers before Wolfman just didn’t offer a luxurious product. If you wanted a truly high end razor with high performance, high end fit and finish, you were pretty much out of luck it seems. Straight razor users though, have had luxury options for over two centuries. 

Here are two examples, both cased gentlemen's pairs. One is a set of original tortoise-scaled Touron-Parisot razors from about 1860-1870. The other is a set of ivory-scaled Le Grelot Lotus, likely early 1950s that I had re-scaled in ivory when you could still do that easily. This image is for you JimmyH and good to see you again.

There’s no real analogue for DE razors that I know of with the exception of Wolfman, that’s why in another post I stated that the DE world needs more Wolfman (luxury), not less, and that people liked buying good looking stuff. BTW Jimmy, if I ever decide to sell those Grelots (highly unlikely), there are about 5 people standing in line for them.

So Mr Wolfman, how about a pair of Ti razors with mild and wild gaps in a luxurious dresser case? If you get up and you’re draggin’ around, get the mild razor, if you’re feeling frisky, get the wild gap. If they came as a limited cased and numbered series from Wolfman, what would those bring? You’d think the ‘onesies’ were were cheap!

Do these pictured SR shave any better than a $30 straight razor? The short answer is no, you can find a $30 straight razor that shaves as well fairly easily, just like in DE world.  But there’s no luxury in the $30 straight unless it’s mis-priced/mis-identified.

User 852, pork, LOOT and 3 others like this post
#29
(01-07-2020, 07:50 PM)Steve56 Wrote: I’ve been following this thread and the ‘Wolfman pricing’ thread, and I think that everyone is missing a big part of the phenomena of ‘outrageously’ priced DE razors (spoiler; they aren’t overpriced, they’re the first of a new class in DE razors). The point is that it isn’t about collectibility or shaveability (though reportedly they do shave very well). What Wolfman and the derivatives (BBS-1) offer is luxury. For some reason, DE makers before Wolfman just didn’t offer a luxurious product. If you wanted a truly high end razor with high performance, high end fit and finish, you were pretty much out of luck it seems. Straight razor users though, have had luxury options for over two centuries. 

Here are two examples, both cased gentlemen's pairs. One is a set of original tortoise-scaled Touron-Parisot razors from about 1860-1870. The other is a set of ivory-scaled Le Grelot Lotus, likely early 1950s that I had re-scaled in ivory when you could still do that easily. This image is for you JimmyH and good to see you again.

There’s no real analogue for DE razors that I know of with the exception of Wolfman, that’s why in another post I stated that the DE world needs more Wolfman (luxury), not less, and that people liked buying good looking stuff. BTW Jimmy, if I ever decide to sell those Grelots (highly unlikely), there are about 5 people standing in line for them.

So Mr Wolfman, how about a pair of Ti razors with mild and wild gaps in a luxurious dresser case? If you get up and you’re draggin’ around, get the mild razor, if you’re feeling frisky, get the wild gap. If they came as a limited cased and numbered series from Wolfman, what would those bring? You’d think the ‘onesies’ were were cheap!

Do these pictured SR shave any better than a $30 straight razor? The short answer is no, you can find a $30 straight razor that shaves as well fairly easily, just like in DE world.  But there’s no luxury in the $30 straight unless it’s mis-priced/mis-identified.
Steve56 Hey, good to 'see' you again too. Great job on those Grelots ! I completely agree with you post. A little luxury in this short life of trouble is a nice thing.  Smile

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#30
(01-03-2020, 11:44 AM)nikos.a Wrote: I'm definitely not an expert on scarcity or a collector nowadays but I'll play. BBS-1 would be any serious collector's choice over a Ti WR2. But why? Let's go.

-First and foremost, it's a discontinued hi-end numbered razor.
Do you really need more to hear?
-It was created during a period that $220 for a razor was a crazy amount of money. Now it's just a normal price. Back in the day, trust me, it was not.
-Besides just designing a razor, James also created the hi-end market of razors. iKon, ATT were on the market, but let's be honest. They are nowhere near the quality of a Wolfman.
-When he made this, I'm referring to James, he was practically an unknown machinist in this hobby. Nobody knew him. This razor changed his life and career, along with John@LASSC of course. There is no Wolfman logo on the baseplate mainly because it didn't exist as a company when he made this. He started making his own razors (WR1) way after designing the razor. It was just a project for the LASSC and you could buy it only through the latter.
-WR2 is a design based on the BBS-1. The original will always be more worthy. Always.
-You had to wait almost two years.
-BBS-1 is the first of its line of the hi-end razors as we use to call this market today.
etc.

This topic has been discussed so so many times... Yet people can't understand basic things and keep bitching. Most if not all people in this hobby, at least those who like modern hi-end razors, would love to own a piece of modern history.

and there you have it.

the BBS-1 has provenance the Wolfman simply does not.

Woflman razors are going for silly money now too, so clearly it's not like it has none. Just less.

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